HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
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most recent 3 OCT SHOW ALL
Initial post 1 MAR 18 by CybeRose
All About Miniature Roses (1967) 
Ralph S. Moore
Chapter 18 — Searching for Better Varieties

More recently several lots of self-set seeds obtained from a plant of the China rose Old Blush (Parson's Pink China) supposedly in cultivation before 1759, were planted and the seedings observed. In all three lots, gathered in different years, the germination was only fair to poor. But Old Blush produces hips readily and each hip contains several medium size seeds. From the first lot quite a number of the seedlings were very definitely of the miniature type. One plant which has grown no taller than 10 inches in seven years has tiny leaves and tiny miniature pink buds opening to one-inch pink flowers (same color as R. rouletti) with seven or eight petals. It has on occasion set a few seed hips.

From the same lot also came other miniature roses ranging in height from 10 to 12 inches. Most of these were very bushy with double one- to one and one-fourth-inch flowers ranging in color from pale pink to medium rose-pink. One of these produces orange colored hips containing one to three seeds none of which appears to contain an embryo. Another grew into a dense free blooming plant with flowers almost duplicating Pink Joy (which is a self seedling of Oakington Ruby). Cuttings of this plant were difficult to root. Still another one of these seedlings grew not over 8 inches high and bore soft pink double flowers resembling Peggy Grant. Cuttings of this were also difficult to root.

The only seedling of the lot to be introduced was one which has slightly larger foliage and lavender-blue (or magenta) colored semi-double flowers. This selection, Mr. Bluebird, grows readily from cuttings and has proven quite cold hardy. Some seed hips are produced, carrying up to five seeds, but germination is very poor. However, among its self seedlings have been several growing not more than 6- to 8-inches tall with miniature leaves and tiny double flowers usually not more than one-half to one-inch in size. Petals are usually very narrow (lance shaped). No seeds have been observed on any of these seedlings but some pollen is produced.

Moore wrote that his first Old Blush seedlings were raised in 1957. Mr. Bluebird came along "More recently". The point is that his memory would not yet have been greatly dimmed by the passage of time as he wrote this book.

And the following item is worth considering when people doubt that Old Blush could produce minis:

J Royal Hort. Soc. 66: 73-82, 242-250, 282-289 (1941)
Notes on the Origin and Evolution of our Garden Roses
C. C. Hurst, Sc.D., PH.D., F.L.S.

Parsons' Pink China is a diploid with 14 chromosomes in the body-cells and 7 in both the male and female germ-cells. Although a diploid, its chromosomes are not regular in their behaviour and weak pairings in the germ-cell divisions lead to defective pollen and embryo-sacs and consequent sterility. In this respect the Pink Chinas behave as hybrids rather than pure species.

Burbank (1914) offered a similar example with his Paradox walnut (a hybrid of Juglans regia and J. Hindsii). In the second generation, "there will be bush-like walnuts from six to eighteen inches in height side by side with trees that have shot up to eighteen or twenty feet; all of the same age and grown from seeds gathered from a single tree. This rate of growth continues throughout life, and the fraternity of dwarfs and giants has been a puzzle to layman and botanist alike."
Reply #1 of 5 posted 25 JUL 18 by Patricia Routley
Karl, I've added the 1967 reference.
Reply #2 of 5 posted 25 JUL 18 by CybeRose
Thanks, Patricia. I finally got access, and have been working my way back through the references I've added as comments. Much yet to do.
I still can't get <b>bold</b> to work, though.
Reply #3 of 5 posted 25 JUL 18 by Patricia Routley
Wonderful, wonderful news.
Forget about the bold. You will see the B I U just above where you will be typing. Or just use the normal Control B on your keyboard.
Reply #4 of 5 posted 3 OCT by Michael Garhart
I see no evidence of miniaturism in Mr Bluebird. I can see that it cluster flowers and lacks any sense of gigantism. It is obviously some sort of cluster-flowering semi-dwarf, but I do not see the tell-tale signs of miniaturism relativity.

But being a semi-dwarf, cluster-flowering type without any gigantism does not mean it is genetically a miniature.

edit: I changed my mind. typical semi-dwarfism is not apparent, as well. Instead, polygenic reduced height expression seems to be apparent.
Reply #5 of 5 posted 3 OCT by CybeRose
Compared to 'Old Blush', 'Mr Bluebird' is dwarfed. Furthermore, a self-seedling of 'Mr Bluebird' was much the same, but smaller.
most recent 29 SEP SHOW ALL
Initial post 22 OCT 17 by CybeRose
The Garden: An Illustrated Weekly Journal of Horticulture in all its Branches, 41(1101): 554 (Dec 24, 1892)
Mme. Bérard and Beaute de l'Europe I have grown side by side, both indoors and out, and fail to distinguish the slightest difference.
Reply #1 of 3 posted 28 SEP by kai-eric
do you have pictures of buds in different stages?
Reply #2 of 3 posted 28 SEP by CybeRose
I have not grown either of these roses. I added this note before I was able to add references.
Karl (CybeRose)
Reply #3 of 3 posted 29 SEP by kai-eric
oh fiddlestick - i posted this erroneously instead replying to the user 'sghiribiz'. sorry for this.
most recent 18 SEP HIDE POSTS
Initial post 18 SEP by CybeRose
Rose Listing Omission

Golden Lion

Wayside Gardens 1944
Golden Lion (Propagating Rights Reserved)

Color of Flower: Clear sparkling golden yellow flowers in clusters on spur bronches. Flowers ore open and cup shaped. Buds are ovoid and slightly deeper tinted. Flowers not unlike Doubloons in form when fully open but of much better, clearer yellow.

Foliage: Light green and shiny. No mildew or blackspot in test for three years.

Hardiness: Can be successfully grown with protection in colder regions.

Size of Plant: Ultimate height about 8 to 10 feet. Canes ore very plentiful and not overly thorny. Exceptionally fine variety for tying flat against fence or wall. Each $2.50, Doz. $25.00

Modern Roses XI (2000) p. 194
'Golden Lion'. HSet. my. 1944; flowers clear golden yellow, open, borne in clusters, cupped, non-recurrent: foliage light, glossy, height 8-10 ft; Horvath
most recent 3 SEP SHOW ALL
Initial post 1 JUL 13 by goncmg
Immeasurably important rose considering not only that it begat Queen Elizabeth lines (and appears in many 60's-70's miniatures along with R. Wichuriana), but also the clear vermillion color, very unique for 1945. Foliage is lovely: bright and glossy, the plant often produces huge trusses of bloom and the scent is notable for me, rather spicey. Downside is the addiction to blackspot. Tantau was known for not disclosing a lot of his breeding parentages and I have always wondered if the cross that resulted in Floradora was not more complex, Baby Chateau x R. Roxburghii SEEDLING or something. Seems very odd that with that father as listed the plant would look so modern, everything about it, and that there wouldn't have been some non-recurrent grandchildren (Queen E's generation).....??? Does anyone have any opinions on this or any information?
Reply #1 of 9 posted 2 JUL 13 by Patricia Routley
I too have been a bit interested in 'Floradora' but it has never come my way. I've spent an hour or so gathering reference page numbers for both 'Floradora' and 'Floradora Cl.' in case I ever get the impetus or need to look closer at the rose.

In the 1950 'Australian Rose Annual', C. H. Isaac, Victoria. said the parentage of 'Floradora' was 'Baby Chateau) (Hyb Poly) x Rosa Multibracteata (Species). So far it was the only mention of a parentage I've seen, but my search has only been a perfunctory one.
Reply #2 of 9 posted 27 OCT 15 by Michael Garhart
If I had to guess, I would hypothesize that the Rosa roxbughii pollen was not truly accepted, and that it prompted the female parts of 'Baby Chateau' to double itself into fertile seed. I have used a relative of R. roxburghii on 'Belle Epoque', which was pollinated between rains, removed of any male parts prior to pollen release, and then covered. The likelihood of impurity was really low, and the likelihood of an impure seed germinating was even lower. The only surviving seedling came out as a near clone of 'Belle Epoque', except strong in color, completely seed sterile, and extremely thin. It was a very weird occurrence. Vigor was oddly strong.
Reply #3 of 9 posted 27 OCT 15 by goncmg
Really interesting, Michael! Looking at Floradora I think you may have nailed it!
Reply #4 of 9 posted 1 FEB 18 by CybeRose
Another possibility is that Floradora and its siblings are partial hybrids. Pollination occurs in the usual way, but the paternal chromosomes are mostly eliminated. This phenomenon has been observed in other genera, such as Helianthus, Solanum, etc.

Wulff (1954) wrote: "There is another remarkable fact to note. Without going into details I may state here that the three roses 'Floradora', 'Käthe Duvigneau', and 'Cinnabar', as well as the hybrid 46534, did not show any traces of the male parent Rosa Roxburghii in their morphology. The first three roses are true hybrid polyanthas, the latter is a true hybrid tea, indicating thus that the genes which are responsible for the respective characters of growth habit and for many characters of shape and size of flowers, fruits, leaves and spines are dominant to the allelic genes of R. Roxburghii. Only anatomical studies revealed a certain similarity and relationship to the latter species."

It would have been helpful if he had given us more information about those anatomical studies.
Reply #5 of 9 posted 2 FEB 18 by Michael Garhart
Hi, Karl,

Interesting. You're right. That just begs for more information, with questions to follow.
Reply #6 of 9 posted 3 FEB 18 by CybeRose
I have a list of possible examples of partial hybridization ... some old, some new ... that are suggestive at least.
If you are interested in the subject.
Reply #7 of 9 posted 3 FEB 18 by Michael Garhart
Thank you!!!

I bookmarked them for nighttime hours.
Reply #8 of 9 posted 6 APR 19 by Michael Garhart
Reply #9 of 9 posted 3 SEP by Plazbo
I agree with the more info about those anatomical studies would have been nice. I've not found the thorns to be particularly recessive with my Baby Faurax x R. Roxburghii Normalis seedlings. Granted they are still quite young and may change but they look more rox hybrid (growth shape) than Baby Faurax. Will be interesting to see what happens with the flowering and hips when they mature enough. Flakey bark (not just browning/woody like in this picture attached) seems to be appearing on some of them around the base where they are thickest (all still very thin wood, small plants) but I may be jumping the gun on that.

I can't put too much focus on the leaflets, while BF typically has 5-7 and the seedlings 9-11, 9 isn't out of the typical realm for multiflora....may increase with maturity, will find out sooner or later.
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