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Discussion id : 74-180
most recent 25 SEP 13 SHOW ALL
Initial post 22 SEP 13 by goncmg
Was just reading the ARS annual, 1977 and some article that discusses rose seed germination and which quoted studies from 1930 or so. Eh??? 1977 and quoting 1931?! Kick is, roses are roses. I have been trying them from seed for 40 years and pretty much it seems to come down to: (1) no matter what you do, germination rate is really low. 25% is a "coup" (2) they need to be chilled, they just do, raw sow results in nothing in my experience with the moderns, older varieties (especially General Jack) have sprouted seedlings in a week off fresh sown seeds but never in my experience any "moderns" do the same or even close (3) I've held a seed bed for years. The story that they will pop a year or two later is, in my experience, an old wives tale. If they have been chilled for a few months most will "pop" 2 days-60 days after sowing. I've had more come up in 36 hours than I have after 60 days. 3 weeks, literally, seems to be the "spot" (4) freezing temps (i.e. watch that crisper!) will result in 0 germination in my we have all the varieties we do is astounding considering the fact roses are really tough to get to sprout from seed and even if they do? Most hybrid seedlings (be they from a "cross" or a self-set/open polination) are not so much "bad" as just "off".................pixilated, single, bloom and foliage are too big or too small, vegative centers, the bloom may combine the best of the parents but the plant combnes the worst or vice versa..................heart breaking but addicting..........................another "old wives tale" in my experiences is that the seedling can or will "drastically" change so to speak after it "matures"----I have never ever experienced this. The first bloom, often at 4-6 weeks of age, is in my experience what the bloom is going to look like. No, you cannot tell if it is going to be really tall or really short at birth, lol, but vigor? Leaf traits? Bloom size? A strong, glossy-leafed medium yellow with 20 petals at 4 weeks of age ends up being the same at maturity.............IMHO/experience.........................that first bloom really is what "you get"................
Reply #1 of 11 posted 22 SEP 13 by Jay-Jay
Sorry gonmcg, but I have to disagree on both counts as for the old wives tales. (because of my and Marnix's experience):
-Please take a look at the photo's of my '12 Westerland 03' seedling, please read the description... and look for the change in colours.
The flower was 2 inches in Ø in its first year, the second year it was at least 3 inches. Later it developped even one of 4 inches in Ø.
(my '12 Westerland 06' changed too, but not that dramatical)
-Marnix sowed rose-seeds for years and some of his seedlings germinated one or more (even up to three) years later.
I'm not that patient to keep the seeds that long and throw them with the potting soil in my garden, where some germinate later after the next winter.
Reply #2 of 11 posted 24 SEP 13 by goncmg
Hi Jay-Jay, thanks for the response. I just checked out your Westerland 3 and want to say WOW, it is a really pretty rose! And very different from Westerland! The "father" you have listed as unknown. Is it from an open-pollinated hip or (like I do a lot) mix pollen when crossing and have to guess at/forget the pollen parent? At any rate it looks gorgeous. Are you planning on getting it into commerce?

From the pictures you posted you sure do seem to have experienced some color change with this seedling. How old is it? Maybe this is going to be a trait this hybrid will always feature? Because I seriously have never seen anything like that! But hey, surely admit I haven't seen everything or know everything! Westerland carries that Circus lineage and that color change so maybe it is possible Westerland 3 carries some really intriuguing color change traits!

As for SIZE, well, I am mis-quoted there/didn't make myself clear on that aspect. Of course a seedling will get a bigger bloom as it matures. But what I have found is that for the most part, the "scale" of the end result is very evident even at the first bloom: if the seedling has an unusually small or large blossom in respect to plant or foliage, this carries on as it matures. At least in my experience.

What ISN'T evident at that first bloom, and which is intriguing, is what the class might be (unless we are talking rugosa or some species, etc.)....a taller seedling may end up a cluster flower and not a pillar or climber, and so on, and it does take--again just in my experiences--until the second year to get the clusters or pannicles on a floribunda/grandiflora/shrub or climber that will cluster flower. But again, that SIZE is just there be it average or big or small.....and the petal count doesn't change.....

I have never held my seed beds beyond 6 months. I have had a few pop right at 6 months and I have had some pop within 12 hours of sowing after 4 months in the chiller. Once upon a time and somewhere I read that the "last" seedlings to germinate and the weaker seedlings usually offer the more interesting colors and tend to carry the best blooms. I have not found this to be true. I have actually found the quick germinaters are more robust in plant but may or may not be more interesting or notable in any manner while the "late" germinaters tend to be a little weaker but again, the bloom may or may not have good qualities. What are your views on this?

The "modern rose"---just a blessed mix of recessive traits---endlessly throws us all for a loop and proves that there is an exception to every rule. When I said "Old Wives Tale" regarding the color change and so on I didn't EVER mean to indicate that such elements could not happen. Not sure how much you have hybridized? I have been doing it for close to 40 years and again, not to say I am some oracle, but again, for the most part in my experience and I have probably raised close to 200 hybrids from my own efforts---pretty much the first bloom is what you get and so on................if you have had FAR different experiences I would love to have you share the details with me! Sowing my hybrid seeds every year is like playing the lottery................
Reply #3 of 11 posted 24 SEP 13 by Jay-Jay
Hi gonmcg,
Where is Your Breeder listing, with so many roses bred?
I think it would be nice, if You would consider sharing the results of Your breeding efforts with the HMF community.

'12 Westerland 03' comes from open pollination in 2012, I only once pollinated a rose my self in my garden, but that was because Marnix asked me to do this combination.(In his garden those roses were still too small and thus he gained some years.)
We grow a vareity of roses and I want to see what the bees would bring. A bit of a lottery (that brought up some interesting apple and pear varieties in the past).
Especially Westerland proved to be a good hip-parent.
Some nice flowering seedlings of it were too weak and were pruneshoveled, but this-one looks well and I'll follow it the next seasons and budgraft it next year to see how it behaves on a rootstock (Inermis, for I couldn't order Schmidt's Ideal).
Maybe, when well behaving, it will find its way to the trials in The Hague.
You're right about the size when considered that way! Now I understand what You meant.
And I have to agree too about the quick germinators as for sturdyness.
As for roses, I have just 3 years of experience in hybridizing, concerning apples and pears for about 20 years.
This year, most of my roseseeds didn't germinate, wrong method (experiment) of stratification. and the ones that did weren't interesting at all!
Best regards, Jay-Jay.
Reply #4 of 11 posted 24 SEP 13 by Rupert, Kim L.
I don't hold my seed tables from year to year, but I frequently have "volunteers" sprout in the potted seedlings left over from the same vintage seeds sewn as I use the soil from the seed tables to pot the seedlings. Generally, it has been thought germination slows, perhaps even stops, once temps become too high, but I have been watching seedlings germinate during our ninety degree and higher temps in the tables.

I've also seen seedlings change drastically from first bloom to "maturity". Look at the transformation in TooCuteChild here on HMF. All photos are of the original seedling, the only plant in existence.
Reply #5 of 11 posted 24 SEP 13 by Jay-Jay
A very cute one indeed Kim. And what a drastic change!!!
Reply #6 of 11 posted 24 SEP 13 by Rupert, Kim L.
Thank you Jay Jay. Often, there is that kind of metamorphosis with maturity. Not always, but frequently. I wish it had kept the scent with age, but it hasn't.
Reply #7 of 11 posted 24 SEP 13 by Jay-Jay
Maybe it will have a fragrance in a cooler climate ;-)
Reply #8 of 11 posted 24 SEP 13 by Rupert, Kim L.
I don't think so. It hasn't here in cooler weather.
Reply #9 of 11 posted 25 SEP 13 by goncmg
Kim! TooCuteChild is a really pretty rose! I like how the color deepend with age---and the bloom size is impressive.

Jay-Jay, despite all the 200+ seedlings I have sired, lol, between 1978 and 2013, most have not been worth hanging on to and I haven't so I have nothing to show. As you probably can relate, June can be fickle with rain or cold or heat and it is tough to get the pollen I want on the seed parent I want (or need as some as soi much more reliable) so often who gets partnered with who is just by what is available on a clear, dry, not windy June day. THIS year my pairings are much more "sensible" and directed towards a result. LAST year (summer '12 for seedlings winter 12-13) it was insane gibberish. Kick is, I had a really unique result with Paradise as a mother: sowed 25 seeds, 24 germinated, 1 within 12 hours and many within 2 or 3 days. Oh I was beside myself and sure I won the powerball since I "mixed" the fathers on her but some---I was convinced--were going to meld with Paradise into something beyond wonderful. I watched their little buds develop, I tried not to peel back the sepals too soon, was certain this was it, get the budwood to SInger to bud, we're going all the way to AARS. OH NO. OOOOHHH of the fathers wss SUNSONG. Yep. That orange cameilia from 1975. And a virile stud Sunsong is! The other possible baby daddies were Comanche, Signature (I hung my hat on this one, Paradise x Signature, think about the possibilities! lol), WW2 Memorial and Red Reflection. SUNSONG BEAT THEM ALL! Of those amazing 24 seedlings? Oh the foliage was varied, most glossy but some pale, some dark, some huge, some small. The blooms??!! ALL 24 were RED ZINNIAS. Sunsong just took over. Red zinnias. Worthless.

I have had some amazing seedlings a few times. The first was when I was 14 and I crossed White Masterpiece x Friendship. I got EXACTLY what I wanted: a truly fragrant Pristine. Gorgeous rose. Fragrant as hell. Tall plant that looked exactly like Friendship with the hard, dull leaf and needle-straight upright growth. Alas, my Dad loved him some Round-Up and liberally used it around my seedlings and it didn't survive to age 3. But it was a winner.

My personal "coup de grace" would have been when I was in college, hybridized summer 1988, Sunsprite x Showbiz. I wanted a bicolor red-yellow, what I didn't understand then is that strong red and strong yellow can result in beige/tan/lilac and wow, gentlemen, I got something else: I got a plant that looked exactly like the father Showbiz: firm and rounded, squattish, super glossy leaves. As it matured this seedling also bloomed like Showbiz: huge pannicles. The fragrance was damask like mama Suunsprite. The color was astounding: bright, clear apricot that in the sun blushed lavender to magenta and never looked dirty. Oh this was a winner. It was. It was fully double with a Sunsprite sized bloom and great substance to boot. Problem is, I was 21. There were other things on my mind. I assumed it would just "always" be around and it DID survive winter 1989-90 when it got down to -25 in Columbus just fine. But I didn't pay attention. Sometime around 1994 it died. I had 5 years to run with that one and never did. Regret regret regret.

THIS year I am hanging my hat on Gold Medal x Futura, Pristine x Marilyn Monroe, Paradise x Perfume Delight, Safrano x Gold Medal, and yes, TWO hips of...drum roll....Sunsprite x Showbiz. I also have Queen Elizabeth x Pinata and Queen Elizabeth x Hawaiian Delight as I am trying to create my own "Los Angeles Beautiful" from 1967, now lost, and I do not grow Rumba but these 2 should give a similar would THINK! This year, for the first time, I did not mix pollen. I also have a really chubby hip of Helen Traubel x Joseph's Coat which is gibberish I thought, but actually could have some fun results...........

Two other seedlings remain salient memories with shades of regret or "wow, so close:" 1987-88 Sunsprite x Miss All American Beauty and 1981-82 LIttle Darling x Granada. WIth the latter I was, at age 14, certaiin i was going to become the next Bill Warriner and looking at those parents you would think the result woulf be amazing. And it sort of was. But as we all know, with so many seedlings it isn't they are AWFUL it is just "something is OFF" and so it was: LD x Granada got LD's HUGE gorgeous plant with Granada's odd Holly-foliage. It DIDN'T get the form of LD as I hoped. It DID end up red with a yellow reverse as I had hoped. It DID have Granada's fragrance as I didn't expect. It DID get LD's small bloom in comparison to plant in SPADES. It was nearly a climber. In 2 years as a seedling it got to 4 feet, maybe more, it was a big one. AND THE BLOOM SIZE WAS PIXILATED. The bloom was just so tiny!!!

And Sunsprite x Miss AAB the result was the complete opposite in the end. I DID get the color I wanted: lipstick pink with yellow reverse. Also got the fragrance from Sunsprite. Got the bloom SIZE from Miss AAB but also got almost a miniature plant. Insane. In the 3rd or 4th year the leaves and the plant were still so tiny yet the blooms were so big. And if not vegative-centered, then very, very confused. Possibly this one should have been budded but again, with most of "them" something is just OFF and although very memorable, these 2 are great examples of how close yet so far it tends to be when trying to win that power ball..................
Reply #10 of 11 posted 25 SEP 13 by Jay-Jay
You were young of age, when for the first time crossing and germinating.
It's a pity, that the most beautifull and most succeeded got lost.
Alas one of my beautifull Apricot Queen Elizabeth OP seedlings died too in a bad winter.
See the attached photo's.
Pollen can be harvested and dried and used at the right moment as You will know... Despite the rain in june/july. I use medicine pots (of Losec) with some "keeping dry stuff" in the lids to collect the pollen for other people.
This one, You bred, must have been wonderfull, You wrote about it: "My personal "coup de grace" would have been when I was in college, hybridized summer 1988, Sunsprite x Showbiz. I wanted a bicolor red-yellow, what I didn't understand then is that strong red and strong yellow can result in beige/tan/lilac"
Where did that one go? Or was it a weak grower?
Enjoy the road when trying to win that power ball!!!
Reply #11 of 11 posted 25 SEP 13 by goncmg
Hi Jay-Jay and thank you for sharing your pictures, I love to see them! The seedling from 1988-89 that you asked about, my "coup de grace," was a very strong grower. It was a marketable rose I think. I have no answer for where it went! I know it was in my parents garden until at least 1994. But one summer it just wasn't there. I imagine it winter killed or who knows what, I was not living with my parents in Ohio at the time, I was living in Charleston, SC by that time. I had 5 years or maybe more to capitalize on my luck and never did. My Dad even started one from cutting so for a year or two I had TWO. But that cutting also "disappeared." When you are 20 or 24 ish there are lots of things on your mind other than a rose growing in your parents yard I suppose. Regret being so cavalier about it now, hindsight and middle-age is 20-20! And yes, I started VERY early with roses! By age 6, 1973, my Christmas presents were gift certificates to Armstrong and Jackson & Perkins, even earlier than that I was fixated on the variety Helen Traubel and would talk to the plant daily and hug it. By age 10 it was ME filling out the Jackson & Perkins Test Panel Rose Reviews. My very first hybridizing attempt was Pristine x Electron, 1976 or 1977 (we had Pristine as a test variety from J&P so I had it a few years before it hit the market)....the result was one really strong very bland medium pink semi-double hybrid tea. We planted it in the yard. We moved a few years later and left it behind.
Discussion id : 52-833
most recent 13 MAR 11 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 13 MAR 11 by Jay-Jay
Some time ago, some-one wrote about extracting embryo's with tomato-pulp. Also some photo's were shown. Could any-one tell me how this works? i'm very interested!
Discussion id : 31-584
most recent 12 NOV 08 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 11 NOV 08 by bugeater
Has anyone hybridized with Belinda's Dream? For a rose with so many good characteristics, it's a little surprising the database doesn't turn up any commercial progeny. Just curious what people's experience with it might be...

Reply #1 of 2 posted 12 NOV 08 by Robert Neil Rippetoe
I had no success with it at all. If you can find some open pollinated hips, that's where I would start.
Reply #2 of 2 posted 12 NOV 08 by bugeater
Thanks, Robert.
Discussion id : 13-509
most recent 1 AUG 06 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 30 JUL 06 by Anonymous-797

What is a 'Pernetiana' ?

I don't see a class for them and haven't seen them mentioned elsewhere.

Reply #1 of 5 posted 30 JUL 06 by Rupert, Kim L.
Pernetianas – What Are They?

Around the turn of the last century, Joseph Pernet succeeded in mixing the genes of R. Foetida with those of Hybrid Teas.  In order to have a common language to describe what resulted from this union, the term “Pernetiana” was coined, and those roses possessing the traits associated with it were included in this new class.  The first successful rose of this “class” was Soleil d’Or.

As more breeding was done using Soleil d’Or and its offspring, new characteristics were popping up.  Foliage, prickles, wood, bloom type, color and size as well as fragrances were appearing that no one had ever seen in modern roses.

Prior to this union, yellow existed as pale, washed out lemon or sulfur shades.  Now, hard, brilliant chrome yellows, some washed and stained with true scarlet, orange, flame and shrimp pinks were possible.  Red had always been of a bluish type, often aging to disagreeable purple tones.  The new reds were of types devoid of any blue tints.  While they did fade, and not always attractively, they did not turn blue.  Other colors we now take for granted, but owe their existence to R. Foetida include copper; bronze; rich apricot; amber; vermilion and the other “neon” colors; true bicolors including scarlet with yellow and white; and eventually silvery mauves, browns and grays.  Unfortunately, the brilliance of these new colors was usually fleeting in the earlier years, leading Dr. J.H. Nicholas to refer to them as “thirty minute roses.”

The softer, often matt green foliage associated with the Hybrid Perpetual and Teas was giving way to glossy, brighter yellow-green leaves.  Prickles evolved into more hooked, slender, graceful weapons.  The peduncles often bore small, red prickles, sometimes all the way to the base of the ovary.  These were frequently equipped with scent glands, often carrying the fruity scents inherited from R. Foetida.  Even new growth tips could yield these scents.

Fragrance, which had usually been of the Damask and Tea type, suddenly took on fruity tones, in many cases mimicking banana, citrus, apple, even berries. R. Foetida blossoms exude an oily scent, often likened to that of linseed oil.  This even showed up in some of the new hybrids, while many simply did not release scent of any kind.  Petal substance, usually softer and more easily damaged by weather and mechanical means in the older European-type and Asian flowers, now demonstrated more of a protective waxy coating.  While allowing the individual bloom to be more durable, this substance also prevented the release of the oils and alcohols necessary to produce fragrance.

As the other characteristics were showing this influence, bark and canes also evolved.  The younger limbs were often of a new shade of bright green, boasting reddish prickles.  Too often, the pith was soft, resulting in poor performance in harsher climates and tended to make some of the varieties more difficult to propagate.

The Pernetianas definitely showed an affinity for warmer, sunnier and drier climates.  Often, the plants would sulk, or even refuse to perform in colder, wetter northern areas. Higher heat and brighter light was necessary to produce the intense pigments these roses had been bred and selected to provide.  Yellow, in particular, was very difficult, and often impossible to get to develop in cooler, duller weather. Many reports of the time complained of washed out, pale yellow to white flowers until the summer heat arrived.

Probably one of the most infamous traits these roses brought into the modern Hybrid Tea is their lessened resistance to black spot.  The species itself is often given as the root of this evil.  My own observation is that R. Foetida is not really more prone to black spot problems than many species.  I believe it is more a problem of mismatched breeding.  R. Foetida developed in a climate which required the rose to break dormancy, push its foliage to maturity quickly, bloom, set seed then wind down rapidly due to the short growing season.  Teas, and therefore Hybrid Teas were evergreen, being bred from species from milder, longer season areas where the foliage needed to develop slowly, holding on the plant for much longer.  The problem was created when the short season genes producing rapidly developing foliage, were mated with genes creating slowly maturing, evergreen foliage. Fungal diseases such as black spot and rust are senility ailments.  Just as animals and humans develop illnesses in their old age, these two fungi attack older foliage as it matures past its prime.  By giving the plant the mixed message of rush to produce, mature and use up your foliage, but, hold on to it for the remainder of the growing season, plants loaded with “senile” foliage resulted.  Logically, resistance to these fungi appeared to be lessened.

It took many generations of breeding and seedling selection to overcome the shortcomings of the early Pernetianas.  By the 1930s, the class had been pretty well absorbed into the Hybrid Tea class.  Many, vastly improved varieties had been developed and introduced, a short thirty years after Soleil d’Or.  By the introduction of Peace, these roses had hit their high point.  Though Peace did not show any of the neon colors of the Pernetianas, it did blend their other characteristics into one, strong, dense, healthy (viewed in 1940s eyes, compared to other 1940s roses) plant.

How can I see one?

Hundreds of these roses never made it long enough for us to enjoy them.  Based upon some that did, that’s probably a good thing.  However, we are fortunate to have some excellent Pernetianas still with us.  While you may find it difficult to find one to study, you may see a current rose with many of these characteristics well displayed.  Pat Austin, the coppery-orange English rose, is essentially a modern Pernetiana.  The wood is bright green, fairly smooth and slender.  Her foliage is bright, glossy, yellow-green.  The peduncle carries the characteristic fine, sharp, red prickles, and there is some scent to them.  However, her flowers are the dead give away.  They’re coppery orange, and bicolor.  Even the fragrance is from the Pernetiana songbook.

Reply #3 of 5 posted 1 AUG 06 by Lyn G


As usual, you have enhanced the site.  Thank you.  Now, anyone can search the Q & A posts and find your answer as to "what is a Pernetiana?"  Great response!



Reply #4 of 5 posted 1 AUG 06 by Rupert, Kim L.
Thank you, Lyn! Now, we need to add "Pernetiana" to all those roses which were either introduced as one, or which fit the mold so proper examples can be seen when searched for. Kim
Reply #5 of 5 posted 1 AUG 06 by Lyn G
Great idea !  Send me a list and I'll get to work on it.
Reply #2 of 5 posted 1 AUG 06 by Lyn G
Just click on "Glossary" on the navigation bar on the left, and then scroll down to the "P's" and click on the link for 'Pernetiana'.  I think you will find some interesting information.
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