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Initial post 23 JUL 20 by Rosewild
Foliolosa follies

It follows that if the Rosa foliolosa in commerce since at least 1890 is an imposter, then all hybrids from it would not be true foliolosa either. There are only two I know of, ‘Basye’s Purple’ and ‘Ann Endt’.
Dr. Robert Basye, Professor of Mathematics at Texas A.& M. University also hybridized roses and created ‘Basye's Purple’ in 1968. He reported this hybrid as pollen of Rosa rugosa rubra crossed with seed parent Rosa foliolosa (2n=14). The resulting Rose was full of drama, with pallid foliage, dark brooding canes and flowers having a funeral aspect like their petals were cut from some purple velvet shroud, truly an American Gothic rose!
The rugosa rubra in its parentage was obvious in leaf texture, dark very prickly canes and flower color and size. But where was foliolosa? Nowhere that I could find but there was one clue to the other parent. ‘Basye’s Purple’ has curled, tubular stipules. So Rosa palustris (2n=14 or 28) or some palustris hybrid was the seed parent. Likely, Basye’s seed parent was the foliolosa imposter that’s been around for at least 130 years. Some form of palustris which I’ve named “Hilliers Foliolosa” because that’s where my plant originated via Pat Cole, past Editor of The Rose Letter.
The Canadian hybridizer, Percy Wright reported he received a plant of Rosa foliolosa from “a Texas mathematician” but whether he hybridized with it I don’t know.
The other Rosa rugosa x foliolosa hybrid ‘Ann Endt’ was discovered in New Zealand, given to Nancy Steen author of The Charm of Old Roses as an unknown foliolosa. Nancy already had the true Rosa foliolosa Nuttall ex Torrey & Gray growing in her garden and this was not the same. So she thought it was possibly M. Maurice Vilmorin’s rugosa x foliolosa hybrid illustrated in Les Plus Belles Roses but unfortunately she gave no date or other reference for the publication. Everyone loved the rose and eventually it was given a name in 1978 by Ken Knobbs in honor of their beloved Auckland gardener Ann Endt. In a photo taken by K.K. Ziarnek in the Auckland Botanic Garden stipules of ‘Ann Endt’ are barely visible but they appear to be flat! (Now I discover Patricia Routley posted an excellent photo of the leaf with stipule clearly visible on February 13, 2015.) Nancy likely is correct, this maybe was Vilmorin’s hybrid using the true Rosa foliolosa Nuttall ex Torrey & Gray with rugosa as the seed parent but there is some confusion about the flower color, Nancy only saw a black and white illustration.
Therefore ‘Basye’s Purple’ and ‘Ann Endt’ are not the same cross but worthy roses in their own right as is “Hilliers Foliolosa” with its vivid red flowers and most neglected of all but certainly not least, the lowly White Prairie Rose, Rosa foliolosa Nuttall ex Torrey & Gray, 1840!
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Reply #1 of 6 posted 9 FEB 22 by Philip_ATX
THANK YOU! Your post answers a question I have long pondered. (See too Paul Barden's seedling of "Purple Folio-Chief" for *another* example of the wine-colors from the presumed "Hillier's Foliolosa" which does *not* include Rugosa in its lineage!)
No one heretofore has been able to tell me what "morph" of the prairie rose contributed to the marvelous coloring on any of these 3 hybrids.
I am not an academician, and have a little difficulty wading through such, but I recall a paper recently on the evolution of polyploid species east of the Rockies -- notably the Carolina complex (Cinnamomaea), that might touch on the origins of these two "Foliolosas"
(HMF won't allow me to post links, apparently.)
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Reply #2 of 6 posted 9 FEB 22 by jedmar
Maybe we should add "Hilliers foliolosa" as a separate listing in order to start unravelling this confusion.
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Reply #3 of 6 posted 9 FEB 22 by Philip_ATX
The nothospecies (if that's the right term) within the Carolina complex, if consistently well-defined across populations, might warrant qualifying Hillier's as a distinct sub-species, to my uneducated mind. I seem to recall reading that the red-flowered morph was found predominantly in Oklahoma whereas the white flowered species is further South and West, which makes sense in view of the distribution of the other species in the Carolina complex. Much of the discussion on DNA markers and such is Greek to me, however.
Any geneticists care to weigh in?
(Sorry I can't link external research links for somebody more fluent in "Greek" to translate! LOL)
I wonder if the the Woodsii group doesn't have at least as much variation.
As an aside, and I have weighed in on this point many times in the past, I really wish the HMF template facilitated a simple presentation of the taxonomy of species. I would *love* to see the pages at the very least modified to reflect the families/subfamilies of species roses in the lineage field (e.g. instead of "If you know the parentage of this rose, or other details, please contact us." It would be helpful, IMHO, to say something like, "Species rose, subg. Rosa (syn. Cinnamomeae), in the Carolina complex, native range Texas to Oklahoma" (or whatever would be more accurate/appropriate).
Thanks.
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Reply #4 of 6 posted 9 FEB 22 by jedmar
Unfortunately, we are not botanists and are not able to make decisions on classification. Clearly all listings here are Species Rosa, mostly subg. Rosa. We can however add notes to selected items if the information is provided by knowledgable members
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Reply #5 of 6 posted 9 FEB 22 by Philip_ATX
No need to make decisions -- not to the extent of that which you were just proposing adding. It's easily found online, and would be much more meaningful than "If you know the parentage of this rose, or other details, please contact us" to just permit contributors to add to the species roses e.g.:
-Hulthemia (formerly Simplicifoliae, meaning "with single leaves") containing one or two species from southwest Asia, R. persica and R. berberifolia (syn. R. persica var. berberifolia) which are the only roses without compound leaves or stipules.
-Hesperrhodos (from the Greek for "western rose") has two species, both from southwestern North America. These are R. minutifolia and R. stellata.
-Platyrhodon (from the Greek for "flaky rose", referring to flaky bark) with one species from east Asia, R. roxburghii.
-Rosa (the type subgenus) containing all the other roses. This subgenus is subdivided into 11 sections.
Banksianae – white and yellow roses from China
Bracteatae – three species, two from China and one from India
Caninae – pink and white species from Asia, Europe and North Africa
Carolinae – white, pink, and bright pink species all from North America
Chinensis – white, pink, yellow, red and mixed-color roses from China and Burma
Gallicanae – pink to crimson and striped roses from western Asia and Europe
Gymnocarpae – a small group distinguished by a deciduous receptacle on the hip; one species in western North America (R. gymnocarpa), the others in east Asia
Laevigatae – a single white species from China
Pimpinellifoliae – white, pink, bright yellow, mauve and striped roses from Asia and Europe
Rosa (syn. sect. Cinnamomeae) - white, pink, lilac, mulberry and red roses from everywhere but North Africa
Synstylae – white, pink, and crimson roses from all areas
(Above from Wikipedia entry on Rosa. Wikispecies has more detailed info.)

I would think this type of information *could* be helpful to hybridizers and collectors alike. Much of my research is on species, and the fact that I cannot even search this database on the level of taxonomy puts me on other sites as much as this one.
It would frankly be a lot easier than making the call "Floribunda" vs "Hybrid Tea".
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Reply #6 of 6 posted today by KDickinson
Living in the very center of r. foliolosa's limited range here in Central Oklahoma I have never once seen anything close to a red flower. They are almost always white except for the occasional white with a very subtle pink undertone.
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Initial post today by Ericchn
Bare root planted in November 2023, so far:

- Very fast to repeat flowers, a literal flowering machine
- Lovely fragrance
- OK disease resistance
- Compact growth habit
- Heat tolerant

But:

- Flowers are rather small (no larger than 6cm)
- The plant itself lacks vigour, maybe due to poor soil

Overall a very nice recent creation from DA
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most recent yesterday HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post yesterday by Louis Galarneau
Just got my first flower and just put a picture . Really nice flower But can somebody tell what is the little green stoff in the middle of the flower ? Please look at the pic I just post
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Reply #1 of 4 posted yesterday by Margaret Furness
Looks like proliferation, ie another bud forming in the middle. Some roses are especially prone to this, eg the Cecile Brunner family. Other types of flower can do it too - I've seen a photo of lots of buds forming around the edge of something (can't remember what) rather than in the middle.
It's ugly but not a disease, and you just cut off the flower if you don't like it.
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Reply #2 of 4 posted yesterday by Margaret Furness
Have a look at a photo of "David's Dilemma", Photo Id: 245456, where the adjacent petals are a different colour.
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Reply #4 of 4 posted yesterday by Louis Galarneau
yes your right the pic id 245456has the exact the same proliferation . Thanks !
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Reply #3 of 4 posted yesterday by Louis Galarneau
Thanks , good to know that it is not a disease . I still like the flower , but not its proliferation ... Let's hope my next flower will be without it . Thanks again. Louis
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most recent 2 days ago HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 2 days ago by melissarama
This is the first year of growing this rose and it's been a delight! The leaves are a bluey-green colour. The flowers are dazzling when they emerge. The shape of the bush is a full round shape. It wasn't attacked by bugs this summer, not even the Japanese Beetles, and it's had absolutely no fungus or blackspot.

What a delightful shrub rose!
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