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Initial post yesterday by HubertG
Patricia, may I ask if this is the same rose that came to you as "Vestey's Pink Tea" that you made comment on in the 'Anne Leygues' file?
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Reply #1 of 2 posted yesterday by Patricia Routley
Yes. The two roses are the same. The photo is of the first listed here:
‘General Schablikine’ (provenance Peta Townsing in 1996, came as ‘General Schablikine’ GS-O-NW-ne.
‘General Schablikine’ (provenance Noelene Drage, gazebo lower in 2000, came as “Vestey’s Pink Tea” Plot-mid-w-9
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Reply #2 of 2 posted today by HubertG
Thank you, Patricia. It's good to know that someone is still growing a documented specimen of the "Vestey's Pink" version of 'General Schablikine'.
I was looking closely at your photo and the branch structure and relative lack of thorniness corresponds to my "Vestey's Pink".
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Initial post yesterday by flodur
This rose is not " blanc saumoné à l'intérieur et d'un rose saumoné à l'extérieur" as described in Journal des Roses 1881.
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Reply #2 of 1 posted yesterday by jedmar
This rose is mislabeled at L'Hay where it is a very full dark red
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Initial post 8 JUL 12 by goncmg
In my experience a very healthy version of Sterling Silver that has no scent. Is this an improvement????? In 1966 it was.............50 years later, not so much..............
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Reply #1 of 14 posted 10 OCT 12 by mtspace
Which Silver Star do you have: a)The Kordes rose bred in 1966 or b) the Weeks rose released in 2002 "to honor war heroes and support WWII Memorial."

The latter is reported to have no fragrance, just like your rose. The" improvement" referred to is its disease-resistance and that's not in comparison to the Kordes rose of the same name but in comparison to Sterling Silver which was reputed to have terrible disease-resistance and poor vigor.

(Apologies for repeating what Gwendolyn Gallagher said.)
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Reply #2 of 14 posted 10 OCT 12 by goncmg
I have 1966. I think that is the variety I posted my comment under?
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Reply #3 of 14 posted 10 OCT 12 by mtspace
The improvement Silver Star (Kordes 1966) offers in comparison to Sterling Silver is supposed to be health and vigor. SS is reputed to be a weak and sickly thing, especially where threatened by blackspot. ARS members, for example, rate this rose a middling 7.1 and Sterling Silver a rather dreadful 5.1. Of course, where it grows well, Sterling Silver might be a better rose in terms of aroma. It certainly still has its fans.

Reports of this rose are that it's fragrant. I know that fragrance is among the more disputed and unrepeatable attributes of rose cultivars. I wonder whether a bit of pampering would improve results? It's always frustrating to buy a rose for fragrance and find it weak in that department.

Once one gets a head-full of fragrance from a good lilac colored hybrid tea rose, it's hard to settle for less. I have grown Lagerfeld and was happy with it until it died for no reason. I grow Shocking Blue and Charles DeGaulle which smell good but wouldn't necessarily be good cutting roses. I wish Paradise were half as as fragrant as either of those. For some time Stainless Steel was marketed as a replacement for Sterling Silver. I haven't tried either of them.
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Reply #4 of 14 posted 10 OCT 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
I collected every "blue" rose available in the US and Canada through the late 1990s, growing them in my old Newhall garden where disease pressure was low most of the time. You may see what grew there if you look up the garden, "A Hidden Sanctuary" here on Help Me Find. I never warmed to Paradise because the "ruby and lavender" combination simply looks dirty to me. I didn't find it fragrant, either. Kordes' Silver Star grew well and had as much fragrance as just about any other lavender HT. Charles de Gaulle was a smaller plant, grew and flowered well and had very good fragrance there to my nose. Stainless Steel was an improvement in vigor over many of them, had a less intense color with a tremendous fragrance. I found Lagerfeld to have a strong, sharp, lemony scent to my nose. It grew rather tall and rangy, had decent color but, like Mme. Violet, threw too large candelabra of flowers on too thin, wispy stems.
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Reply #5 of 14 posted 10 OCT 12 by mtspace
Thanks. I enjoyed your article. I think Reine des Violettes is somewhere in my future. I think I will want to try Stainless Steel and perhaps Silver Star, too. I continue to be tempted by Lagerfeld. My biggest problem with it was that it served as a neighborhood-wide trap for thrips. I'm sure all my other roses benefited, but it wasn't uncommon for all the blossoms on Lagerfeld to be ruined by them... until one season when a spider moved in and got very very fat.
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Reply #6 of 14 posted 11 OCT 12 by goncmg
Oh yes, for sure, Silver Star is more vigorous than Sterling Silver and again, reminds me more or less OF Sterling Silver....color for me is a little richer....leaves are darker like Silver, and so on....I have always been a huge fan of the lavender/lilac/odd colors! Still haven't grown Lavender Pinocchio somehow, this year do have Grey Pearl at long last, somewhat anti-climactic experience. Enjoyed Lady X despite its wan color. Neptune and Fragrant Plum are excellent in my opinion---when Neptune throws a fat, 6 inch classic form I just want to swoon. World War 2 Memorial, with its long buds and lilac/grey/magenta shadings had an impressive year for me in Columbus, it must respond well to extreme heat! I do not get much scent from Silver Star? Azure Sea is another scentless one of this color for me. I would definately try Sterling Silver if I were you....the scent is amazing, the color is pure and clear, the plant is weaker but not the worst of the bunch in my past experiences. Lagerfeld is for me a mixed bag---it can look lovely and delicate, it can to me look ghastly ashen and sick, but it does have a great fragrance for sure, the type I guess I unfairly almost demand from this color the way many do with the deeper reds. Blue Moon and Blue Girl I have grown and to me they stand out very little.....Blue Nile I recall growing in the early 80's and recall a fat and floppy bloom on a small and weak plant that winter killed the first year. Would like to try the old Royal Amethyst, probably because I just like the name........a HMF friend is has sent budwood of Quicksilver which I am anxious to get to know next spring.....

My Silver Star is a band from Vintage.....

Have either you ever tried the newer Sweetness????? In photos it seems to have the clarity of color that Sterling Silver has, but I have never tried it. Barbra Streisand???

And Kim, I always love it when you chime in! Kim, wasn't there one like Spellcaster or Spell-xyz, like deep plum, from J&P a while back????? Why does that ring a bell???
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Reply #7 of 14 posted 11 OCT 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
Thanks, Chris! My initial quest was for the "blue rose". Blue for You is the absolute closest there is so far. Much more so than Rhapsody in Blue. And, scent? Amazing! Health, vigor, glorious foliage, no HT form and definitely not "lavender" but more of Cardinal de Richelieu purple. The exact shades I have sought for thirty years.

Royal Amethyst was a decent plant in Newhall. Not tremendous, but large, husky and nicely scented. Quicksilver was not great. But, those were the years when Armstrong had production difficulties with it, Plum Crazy and Silverado. The story about Silverado and Quicksilver was they "accidentally" plowed under the field full of the plants. Once they finally made it to market, the plants were pretty terrible. I've not tried Sweetness as I'm not really into collecting more lavenders as they aren't usually the quality of plants I want to use for breeding. Stinky Babs can be pretty if you have the right climate for it. I've never grown a rose more attractive to scale than Babs. I care for it in a client's garden. I won't have in mine. Spellcaster was a J&P mauve I didn't care much for. It was bred from Angel Farce and showed it.

The most recent mauve I have is Purple Passion. I didn't buy it, This was a gift from a dear friend who knows I loved mauve roses. I don't love this one. It's from Fortune Teller (awful rose) and Heirloom, a mauve I have never cared for. J&P has had a very long line of pretty bad mauve HTs and floribundas. It was almost as if they specialized in making muddy colored mauves with marginal foliage. I guess they took Armstrong's marginal ones and "built" on them after buying them.

After nursing it along for decades, my Lavender Pinocchio has finally died, not to be replaced. Unless you love providing "nursing home care", don't bother with it own root. Budded it is significantly better, but still not "good". Slightly better than Grey Pearl budded, if that tells you anything. One of my two budded Grey Pearl bushes appears to be in decline and not responsive to anything I've tried. But, you know, I've reached the point where I'm tired of nursing along these "miffy dawgs". Give me a bed of Blue for You any day!
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Reply #8 of 14 posted 11 OCT 12 by goncmg
Kim! I will look up Blue for You, have never heard of if and am intrigued. Love you brought Cardinal de Richelieu into this because there are times that one does get those tones intriguingly right......have you tried Wild Blue Yonder? or, backing up to my last post, the newer Sweetness?

My Grey Pearls are bands and share a pot (ahem).....they hit the ground running, really I thought I was onto something, either with luck or skill. They do tend to bloom themselves to death! However, despite my gloat-y post on the GP site, well, by August they just STOPPED. They didn't get blackspot or mildew per se, at least not at first when someothers (Arizona, Royal Highness, UGH!) did....they just stopped growing. Period. THEN they got some blackspot. THEN one of them 1/2 died back.....

I have limited space and not as much time as I would like and I am pushing 100 in pots and agree with you and the "nursing home care." I just CAN'T. Quite honestly I didn't find the Grey Pearl blooms all that amazing in any sense---I mean I was 5 when I read Edlund's Pocket Encyclopedia and first saw it, then the Roses of Yesterday and Today catalogs and whatnot and the rose what to me a legend---well, CLUNK. I think it is noted HEAT makes the bloom quartered and yeah, highs around 95 all summer in Columbus did just that....and the color is just dirty.....,anyway...

Have you tried KokoLoko (hate that name btw).....
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Reply #9 of 14 posted 11 OCT 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
Though I love Tom Carruth roses, Wild Blue Yonder has never done it for me. I love Midnight Blue, plant and flower, but that's about it of his purples. I've seen Koko Loko and won't be growing it. I live right on the cusp of inland valley heat and coastal fog producing black spot and rust. It's too hot and windy to spray, which I refuse to do for any reason, anyway. I'm allergic to many chemicals and if a rose isn't happy living with me without chemical intervention, it needs to live elsewhere. If your temps are cool enough, Koko Loko can be interesting. In heat, it's rather putrid, and remember, I LOVE the odd colors.

If you want to really blow your mind, look up Eyes for You. It's bred from Blue for You and is amazing!
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Reply #10 of 14 posted 11 OCT 12 by goncmg
Will be looking up the Blue and now the Eyes....and laughing about Koko and your locale! Koko for me was sick brown....like dirty brown....muddy as hell, ugly, and the blooms hide in the foliage and we had one bizarre hot summer here in Columbus. With spray, THANK YOU for absolving me! Again, I have 100 in pots which is nothing but also something and I DO spray but I do it every 3 weeks and that is that. Make it with that or don't. Royal Highness and Arizona----and again, it was HOT and DRY here this year---good grief, they could get blackspot living in an oven.........it makes me sick but our landscaper guy has a "hit" list to "make disappear" next week and they are on it.....once they fell many others fell.........and BLACK BACCARA!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL LOL LOL Oh, Kim....yes, the worst rose ever introduced in my opinion! I didn't take mine out when we last communicated....I gave it a full season....it came up with ZERO. It literally did not even grow, not one good shoot, not a basal, ZERO. Denuded now by the blackspot that AZ and RH introduced, it looks 9 months after planting JUST like it looked when I planted it............for crying out loud I have bands of like Smoky and Vesper that have quadrupled in size.....seriously...........

***EYES FOR YOU is something else!!!!!
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Reply #11 of 14 posted 12 OCT 12 by mtspace
I am really enjoying this discussion of lilac, mauve, and purple roses. I find that I'm getting pulled into the lilac rose thing nose first. It may be that I credit my lilac/purple roses with some of the delicious scent from Ilse Krohn Superior which is next door, always in bloom, and smelling great when they are in bloom, but the lilac roses in my garden are the most deliciously scented of my roses. The color of the pale lilac-gray roses, I'm afraid, leaves me cold. But once the roses show a touch of purple, I find the rose visually interesting. Still, I might be tempted to grow a rose that I found to be truly awful in appearance if it pleased my nose.

I planted Barbara Streisand (Palatine) in my garden this spring and it grew reasonably well, reaching waist height. There was not much spring bloom, maybe a bud or two. Though my garden is fenced I get occasional visits from deer who deadhead my roses before they actually open. So Barbara lost some buds here. My early impression is that fragrance will be good; but I don't know whether it will be great. I think its color complements the lilac roses nearby. I find the plant to be a little upright and narrow, so I'm glad I planted several close together.

I know it can have quite a bit of red in it and may not, therefore, be a good candidate for this discussion, but I grew Stephen's Big Purple in NJ. It was considerably more resistant to BS than most HTs. And for two years it survived on about three hours of sunlight per day. It did bloom once or twice, but I cannot remember much more about it. If its fragrance was unremarkable, I imagine that part of the blame was my own.

Chris, I enjoyed hearing your opinions about Royal Highness, Arizona, and Black Baccara. I've not been very tempted by the latter, but AZ is on my list for spring planting. I find the visual perfection of RH interesting - it always takes a good photo. I'm hoping AZ does better in this zip code than in OH. When I grew roses in NJ I did not spray. When I moved to Arizona four years ago I did it with the intention of not spraying.

Then in spring 2011 deer entered my garden in May and removed every flower bud and every new leaf from many dozens of roses half of which were in their first season. This set the young garden back by at least half a year. So I started spraying the garden to deter deer. It worked. I sprayed this spring for a month and the deer stayed out through September.

This year we had a very wet monsoon season and powdery mildew broke out in the garden in August. Then a bit of blackspot appeared on Gingersnap and Cardinal Hume. I had no idea how far the problem would spread, so I broke out some copper soap solution, then moved to potassium bicarbonate. It is still my habit only to spray foliage very near the infection and to monitor closely, not to blast the whole garden. Still I don't have much reservation about potassium bicarbonate because it could be used in quick release fertilizer.

If next year's weather is more typical, I probably will not have to worry much. I am finding that even in a place where the RH spends most of the growing season below 30%, having disease resistant roses counts for something. And I know from experience that if one plant has a great weakness for a disease, it tends to serve as a breeding ground for it, spreading it generously to other plants: Gloire de Mousseux for downy mildew, Cressida for blackspot, and Permanent Wave for for powdery mildew.
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Reply #12 of 14 posted 14 OCT 12 by goncmg
Oh DEER----the bane of my rose growing----mine grow in pots, many along a patio shaped like an 'S' and many more along the side of the house, total suburbia, and this year I got lucky but LAST year the deer came onto the patio, everywhere, ate everything down to nubs and I lost my 1st bloom by 50%........I wish I lived in a drier climate, I am 45 and we moved to Columbus from Chico, CA when I was 13.....I still yearn for spring around 2/01 and hate the humidity...........I would still caution you regarding Arizona as if you see my review of it, yes, Arizona blackspotted in Chico! As did General Jack, Mme. Isaac Perriere, Jadis and Proud Land. Laughing you lilve in AZ and mentioned Catherdral as an issue because yes, I did try that one here in Ohio and Gingersnap as well and have given up. Gingersnap's color is just beyond, nothing equal and the rose is 40 years old but the plant just needs coddling and is soooooo blackspot prone! Saw your comment on my Sutter's Gold post and did look at your info...........I would absolutely recommend SG and do believe you will have good results with Sterling Silver. Royal Highness again I caution you as it also does not like it hot, like many with that Peace gene it will defoliate in heat.....but yes, you are correct, it photographs beautifully and honestly? Those pictures do not lie! When RH gets it right, it gets it sooooo right, it has stolen that first spring bloomn show for me every year, gorgeous, beyond belief, crytalline light clear clean pink birthday cake blooms and glossy shiney foliage...........but that is it. You get one show. Then it defoliates. And it has no scent. If your garden leans heritage but you are interested in more or less moderns that fit into that scheme I would recommend the 1983 AARS Sweet Surrender which was introduced out of time as it has a rather quartered, old school look to the bloom but is a tough plant and the name describes the scent..........also look at Lemon Spice from 1966 which is, like Sutter's, a rangy messy plant but healthy enough and loose and airy enough that you can underplant and the color is lovely, pastel yellow and the scent is remarkable..............and have you tried Angel Face from 1969???? If not, check it out....still around after 44 years and for a reason...........
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Reply #13 of 14 posted 14 OCT 12 by mtspace
I failed once with Lemon Spice on its own roots, but I've learned one or two things since then that might help me be more successful next time. I really need to add that to my garden. I've seen Sweet Surrender and was awed by how generously it bloomed; sadly I was there too late for the fragrance. I planted Angel Face and nursed it for a year before it died. But it's definitely a rose I'll try again, though maybe not on its own roots.

When I was quite a bit younger I found I was most interested in the red and yellow roses. I have gardened long enough to know that the strongest reds can be hard to work into a garden and that the strongest yellows and golds almost require their own (separate) spaces. Roses like Lemon Spice and Angel Face, though can be woven into the fabric of just about any rose bed. Sounds like I really do need to try Sutter's Gold and Sterling Silver, too.

Thanks much for the info.
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Reply #14 of 14 posted yesterday by midrashist
I'm enjoying the lavender grey discussion too, it's exactly what I wanted to know! I've been going thru the silvery and now the lavender roses (I'm not even half way thru them), and taking notes. I only want 4-6 total of them, but do not want really challenging ones. Learning a lot as roses have never been my thing.
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