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Recent Questions, Answers and Comments
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I feel stupid asking this, as Excelsa is wichurana / luciae and Turner's Crimson is multiflora, but would someone who grows both please post comparison photos? Trying to ID a foundling. It has feathery stipules, but so does what I assume to be Hiawatha (luciae) from the same roadside patch.
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Quit feeling stupid. You’re LOOKING at a rose and that is smart. It is well known that most multifloras have feathery stipules, but in my garden most wich’s ALSO have this trait. Just take a look at the parentage tree of ‘Excelsa’ and you will see where the feathery stipules come from.
I think basically, a multi has matt leaves and a wich has shiny. Ignore the word luciae - just concentrate on multi and wich. You might also like to read the 2008 reference for ‘Turner’s Crimson Rambler’ which may help you know what sort of bush it is.
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Hello Margaret,
Here are leaves from 'Excelsa' and 'Turner's Crimson'. 'T C' has a more shrub like grow whilst 'E' shoots are quite brambly with its Wichurana blood. 'T C' often has two little leaflets by the stipule facing the opposite way to the other leaves. There is a good picture that Patricia has posted of 'T. C'. 'T. C' leaves are paler and generally not so shiny as 'E'. Both have featery stipules but 'T. C' are particularly bristly.
Regards Andrew.
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.147304
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Thanks Andrew. I have the impression from your photo that Excelsa's leaves are slightly rounded, compared to Turner's Crimson.
Ramblers are survivors here, reflecting their ability to root down (layer themselves). I'm adding a couple of photos of what I think is Excelsa, where it can't have been watered for decades. The first has Excelsa in the foreground, Hiawatha climbing the tree; fortunately both just reach the road verge now, because you don't walk into places like that in summer. The second photo is an old country churchyard, which I like for the horse-trough in the foreground.
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Yes, 'Turner's Crimson' leaves are much more pointed and multiflora like. I found my 'Turner's Crimson' in a derelict mill along with what I believed to be 'Paul Ricault' but it now appears to be 'Paul Perras'. I know you aren't having anymore roses but 'Turner's Crimson' is such a historically important rose, and pretty as well.
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I am not sure if this will help - the photo might be too small. I have included some ‘Mlle Cecile Brunner’ buds to help discern the ‘Dorothy Perkins’ pink colour.
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Maybe not! It makes Turner's Crimson's leaves look rounded. Thank you anyway.
I'm collecting cuttings of ramblers to try to make sure one nursery has a full house as far as those in SA go. Very few nurseries selling heritage roses are left in Aus now. I need to make sure I get them right.
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Here is a picture of a foundling rose that was later identified as 'Turner's Crimson', it shows the slight puckering of the leaves (Bullate?) quite well.
http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=21.319991
Ed. The member Palustris has many good pictures of these types of ramblers including 'Excelsa'.
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#9 of 18 posted
4 days ago by
 Palustris
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Andrew, that plant can't be 'Turner's Crimson Rambler'. Look at the pedicels: they should be covered with tiny hairs. I can't believe I don't have any good photos of it. Next year I'll take some good photos.
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Oh! That's interesting. I wonder what this rose could be!? The plant I took my cuttings off would have been planted around 70 years ago and is grown in other gardens in the village too.
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#11 of 18 posted
4 days ago by
Palustris
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I'm not certain, but the color looks about right for TCR.
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#8 of 18 posted
4 days ago by
Palustris
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'Excelsa' and 'Turner's Crimson Rambler' are quite distinct once you have had the opportunity to see them both in full flower. TCR has much more maroon flowers than 'Excelsa' whose flowers are red fading to a dull pink. However, the absolutely easiest method it to look at the pedicels. On TCR they are absolutely covered with a profusion of tiny hairs.
This can be easily seen in Patricia's photo: http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.187524
It can also be seen in the picture from the book: Rosenbuch für Gartenliebhaber by J. Hoffmann, Berlin
Once the plants are out of flower, identifying them may be more difficult.
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I think I have (access to) both, flowering at present on roadsides. On the left, near the restored bootmaker's shop from 1904 at Mylor, is what I think is Turner's Crimson Rambler, based on what I'm told about the pedicels. It grows in shade for at least half of the day, and has quite a bit of mildew. Some petals develop an ugly mauve tinge as it fades. On the right is the one about 5km away, at Bradbury, which I think is Excelsa, growing in full sun. The watsonia, and bracken and blackberry in a previous photo, are declared weeds.
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I doubting whether my 'Excelsa' is correct now as well.
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#14 of 18 posted
3 days ago by
Palustris
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Margaret, please look at my photos of 'Excelsa' that show the pedicels, peduncles, and small stems:
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.263202
I think that the mildewed rose in your photo could be 'Excelsa'. Notice that the pedicels of TCR are completely covered by the tiny hairs, but on 'Excelsa' they are much fewer and they sparsely populate the pedicels.
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It's complicated when both are found roses, and I think Patricia's are too. I should check at a nursery (which is going out of business) has named plants and re-photograph them.
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Yes you should. Take the book 'Tea Roses' and photograph an average coloured bloom on page 206.
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#17 of 18 posted
2 days ago by
Palustris
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Well, I'm sorry I haven't taken any good photos of 'Turner's Crimson Rambler' showing the extraordinary pedicels. I know there are a few plants in town all bought from Michael Walsh about 100 years ago. One plant was recently cut to the ground by the homeowner, but I am certain there are layered plants near it that I need to rescue so I can have my own clone.
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This is Excelsa as grown at Thomas for Roses nursery (sorry Patricia, I forgot to take the Tea book). Nearer pink than red. Admittedly they have what I think is the same rose as Paul's Scarlet, but it's not that.
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Initial post
2 days ago by
Cayuse
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I have had this rose for about two years now, and it is one of my favorites. It does well in the sunny heat of summer, in the partial shade of fall, and it is consistently a huge plant (over 5'). The blooms are consistently big. The best color is in the cooler temps of fall when it starts out a lovely peachy color which deepens to scarlet. We have thrips in the summer and this bush seems to have more resistance than some.
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I'm hoping one of the tea ladies can help with this rose. It is planted in the Barbara May Rose Garden at Rookwood Cemetery in Sydney, Australia, so I assume it's a foundling that has been renamed, but I'd like to know what name it has been given so I can look at more photos of it. It appears to be an intermediate between a Tea and a China, bright dark red, and velvety (my photographs don't pick this quality up that well). I've been looking at my photos and the early photos and illustrations of 'Princesse de Sagan' and seeing similarities, I am wondering if they could be the same.
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#1 of 14 posted
6 days ago by
Jay-Jay
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Maybe better photographing it in the morning- or evening light or on a cloudy day. Better red colors and less UV.
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#2 of 14 posted
6 days ago by
HubertG
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I agree. It fact I hadn't planned a visit here at all and was just nearby and decided to drop in and it was about noon. I was using my phone to photograph the rose, and dark or bright reds are always difficult to capture accurately with it. None of the roses were labelled. I'm really curious about this one. This photo captures the velvet a bit better but is out of focus.
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#3 of 14 posted
6 days ago by
Jay-Jay
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It looks (as if) without prickles.
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#4 of 14 posted
6 days ago by
HubertG
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It did have thorns, but wasn't overly thorny. You can see a couple on the branch at the top right here.
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Billy Teabag is off air for while.
The garden is looked after by the Sydney branch of Heritage Roses in Australia. I'll send a contact email address via pm.
I don't know if they planted "Camnethan Cherry-red" there. The plant given the study name was collected in Victoria.
To quote (from memory) the Indian Rose Journal: Plants in public gardens should be labelled, as the public like to know what they're stealing.
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#6 of 14 posted
6 days ago by
Jay-JayReply
#7 of 14 posted
6 days ago by
HubertG
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I have grown "Camnethan Cherry Red" before and my impression was they weren't the same rose.
And I can't believe I forgot to smell it, although simply standing near it I didn't detect a perfume.
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If you were able to find out, I would love to know its “study name” HubertG
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#9 of 14 posted
4 days ago by
HubertG
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I sent a message to the lady who should know. I'll post its study name as soon as I find out.
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Take a look at the file "J. Datson" (syn :Frank Veal"). Sorry I am not able to search for more info for a couple of days but will get back to it and add whatever I find.
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"J Datson" at Renmark is low-growing, pretty much "just another China". I think the flowers are smaller than in your photos.
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#13 of 14 posted
2 days ago by
HubertG
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Just regarding the possibility of this rose being 'Princesse de Sagan':-
There are a few more recently posted early American catalogue photos of PdS (and bear in mind that they MAY not be accurate) which are a bit at odds with the rather shaggy open flowers in the Henry Moon illustration. However looking at this rose at Rookwood, the opening flowers are rather cupped, with a rounded outline that tends to match these photos. The petals only seem to reflex when they are more open. The drawing in the Journal des Roses actually bears a fair resemblance to some of these Rookwood blooms, but the most notable point about this illustration for me is that the bud receptacles are a close match for our rose, as are the spacing and poise of the loose clusters. The bud shown in the Geroge H. Mellem 1906 drawing (which looks to me like it's done from a photo) shows a very similar bud shape. The notable point for me about the Moon painting is that the terminal leaflet is rather long and attenuated (compare to the KAV leaves alongside) and this does match the Rookwood rose (see my 4th photo for a fair example).
Here's another photo of an opening bloom still with its rounded outline. There are about 5 rows of petals and you can just see the stamens. It's interesting that one of the American catalogues call PdS "The crimson Brabant" and I wonder if it is because of this cup shape and it's freedom of bloom.
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#12 of 14 posted
2 days ago by
HubertG
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Thanks Patricia, I had a quick look at "J. Datson" which seems to be very similar to 'Cramoisi Superieur'.
The rose I photographed had flowers too large to be a China like that, with blooms maybe 2 1/2" to 3" across (just guessing from memory). Small to medium for a tea but too large for the classic red china class. There were in fact a couple of typical red Chinas in that Rookwood garden, one was small and barely more than single with a white eye from memory.
Edit: I just saw your post, Margaret, yes I agree with you. Here's another photo of the mystery rose.
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The nearly-single China with a white eye has the study name "Jane Vaughn". I no longer have it.
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Both of these photos of mine should be moved to Sutter’s Gold.
Joan Goff. If you let me know when it is done, I will post comments
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Joan, all members are able to move their own photos. Just open the photo, click on REASSIGN on the top left, type in Sutter’s Gold, and then I think the next step is CONTINUE. Voila - you will see the name at the top changed from Talisman to Sutters Gold, and you have done it.
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I noted that the pink and yellow photo has disappeared. Perhaps you had a problem there, so I have moved your other photo out of Talisman and into Sutter's Gold. Hope that is OK.
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