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Initial post today by Michael Garhart
Illusion is 1 cycle time-spacing away from Kordes first generation Golden Glow work, so its possible Illusion is 2nd gen. Golden Glow. Hence, the red-limiting factor in the seedling, coupled with the other parent's.
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Initial post 29 APR 13 by Benaminh
I am trying to decide between Opening Night and Cesar Chavez (AKA Beloved). They have the same parentage. For those that have grown both, please tell me what the differences are between the two, is one better than the other? Many thanks.
Reply #1 of 10 posted 30 APR 13 by Rupert, Kim L.
I have sold both in a retail nursery and both were OK roses. Keep in mind, though, J&P banked more on Opening Night than Beloved. They gave it a better commercial name and provided it more advertising. The rose selected to be the "memorial rose" was given a name which might have sold more plants to those who valued the Cesar Chavez name (many didn't) while the donations period was in effect, then renamed a more generic, commercial name to finish capitalizing on the rose during its patent period. Interesting, also, Opening Night is rated as very disease resistant, while Beloved has a stated susceptibility to black spot. You can figure out a lot about what the creator/introducer of a rose thinks about its worth by what name it's given. Opening Night is a good commercial name, evoking thoughts of long stemmed, romantic, red beauties to be given the "star". Beloved is an OK name, but nowhere near the caliber of Opening Night.
Reply #2 of 10 posted 30 APR 13 by Benaminh
Ugh, the silly naming game. It's ridiculous to rename Cezar E. Chavez to Beloved as well as having rare circulating roses declared extinct to steal their names. Or in the case of Meilland, giving different roses the same name over and over again. I also dislike the stupid TM and R of rose names. Thanks for the response Kim, but please tell me more about their differences in regard to bloom form, color, fragrance, growth, and disease resistance -- often times the marketing hype doesn't deliver. Looking at HMF pics, Cezar Chavez seems to have better form and color? I vaguely remember seeing Opening Night at a municipal garden but the flowers faded an ugly shade of red... do you think either of them an improvement over their parents?
Reply #3 of 10 posted 30 APR 13 by Rupert, Kim L.
Actually, neither one sufficiently spoke to me to follow me home or for me to spec them for installation in gardens. Ingrid Bergman, however, became a staple due to her performance. The "name game" is the only reason any of the "commercial roses" exist. They are products to generate revenue for their introducing nurseries. There have been great roses which have died in the market due to horrid names, and horrid roses which have had wide spread distribution due to great names.

From a rose nut perspective, Opening Night was the 'better' rose. It was healthier and held its flower shape in nursery cans, two blocks from the Pacific Ocean better. It looked more like the romantic red rose men buy their ladies, while Beloved seemed more the landscape floribunda type. Ironically, Opening Night was traditionally budded while Beloved was a New Generation Rose, J&P's own root line, so from their production stand point, Beloved was the better rose. Beloved has greater vigor own root than Opening Night provides with an under stock.

In that upscale, beach community, Opening Night sold well by itself. Cesar Chavez seldom sold once they heard the name. "Beloved" sold as long as Opening Night wasn't in flower or was out of stock (and we didn't tell them it used to be Cesar).

If you're considering them both own root, at least you know Beloved grows acceptably own root. I don't know how Opening Night does as they've always been budded and that can make a tremendous difference. But, as I said, neither ever spoke to me strongly enough for me to want to take them home or recommend them for any landscape jobs. I still suggest Ingrid for that purpose because she delivers; she's often easier to find and you can rely upon her in these parts.
Reply #4 of 10 posted 30 APR 13 by Benaminh
LOL, sounds like the snooty clientele at Roger's Gardens. That would probably explain the popularity of Queen Elizabeth; I never understood its success. Sure it grows anywhere, but such an ugly flower... the appeal must be all in the name. Having said that, I would NEVER grow a Barbara Bush nor Laura Bush in my garden just because of the name!

Cezar E. Chavez it is then, I'm actually looking for a vigorous, very disease resistant, exhibition red rose that will pass on its glossy dark foliage and red color to its seedlings. I considered Burgund 81 (Loving Memory), but the foliage is matte. What do you think?
Reply #5 of 10 posted 30 APR 13 by Rupert, Kim L.
Perhaps not the greatest flower, but where suited, Queen Elizabeth is an otherwise faultless "weed". It lives forever, achieves amazing proportions and just does her thing without any fuss. My sister has three enormous mounds of it which are over forty years old and she is NOT a "gardener".

If it's red with glossy foliage you want, have you considered Crimson Bouquet? The first time I saw that was at Exposition Park years ago. Their large bed of it appeared to be created of plastic. The foliage looked oiled, it was SO glossy and the flowers glowed. I'd consider using it for breeding before I would use either of the other two.
Reply #6 of 10 posted 30 APR 13 by Benaminh
Great suggestion, Crimson Bouquet flew under my radar, I'll look into it next time I'm in San Jose. At first considered a Kordesii but their stems and habit leave much to be desired. I doubt you remember me, but we briefly met decades ago at a Huntington plant sale when Clair Martin was still director. He was very helpful with my research project. There must be a better way to stratify seeds besides a refrigerated moist paper towel in ziplock bag? Are you still active on RHA?
Reply #7 of 10 posted 30 APR 13 by Rupert, Kim L.
I might recognize your face (I almost NEVER forget a face!) but without that, a name I'd recognize or some other characteristic detail, it's difficult to pull the information out of the "muck'! What was your research project about? Perhaps that might jog the right file from the pile. Those sales were a real blast! Generating the plants each year in anticipation of them was great fun, then getting to kibitz with the folks looking for special desires iced that cake. I do remember things such as the eight year old boy from Britain who sought a brown rose. I'd imported all the brown, gray and green roses in the Harkness and LeGrice catalogs and made sure they were available for the sales. I asked him if he was British, then showed him what we had and explained they were also British. I suggested he bring his mom back with him, which he dutifully did. They were both excited and couldn't decide which they had to have, so one of each went home with them. There was a gentleman who had a yellow house with a low brick planter across a portion of the facade. He sought a dozen plants of a suitable rose to grow in that planter. I asked him what he thought of a violet colored one then showed him the eleven plants of Mr. Bluebird we had and told him how easily it rooted and how to do it. He bought those eleven Mr. Bluebirds for the planter. The next year, he deliberately sought me out to make sure he told me how wonderful his TWELVE Mr. Bluebird roses looked in his planter. He rooted the required twelfth and enjoyed the whole experience. The sales were real feeding frenzies, but great fun!

You might also look at the climber, Sympathie. It has created some very good, very healthy roses and has always been spectacular each time I've encountered it in gardens here. It might be more difficult to find these days, but I think you might enjoy it if you luck out with one.
Reply #8 of 10 posted 19 MAY 13 by Benaminh
I checked out Sympathie at the SJHRG and also found a source -- it's on order and soon to be shipped. It matures into a nice plant with good leaves and a clean color. Flower form isn't bad either -- acceptable. I just bought Crimson Bouquet from Garden Valley Ranch in Petaluma. It has beautiful dark shiny leaves, saturated blood red petals, and a light fragrance. Although the form could be better, the flowers like the heat. I was also impressed by Moore's hybrid rugosa Linda Campbell. Quite a show!
Reply #9 of 10 posted 31 MAY 16 by Carol T
It's on J & P website, now called Beloved. I looked at Modern Roses website today & Beloved & Cesar E. Chavez are same. ARS AEN is Cesar E. Chavez. Code name is JAColman.
Reply #10 of 10 posted today by Michael Garhart
In my opinion, 'Pride of England', if we're talking red + garden cuttable type + non-fragrant, is the best out right now. It's ridiculously easy to grow, blooms a lot, and is quite cuttable.

I thought Grande Amore would beat out Pride of England in my garden, but GA has proven to want to grow very tall and not bloom as much. Heart Song has been really great, and has some scent, and doesn't overgrow the garden. I would recommend that one, too. I don't spray either Pride of England or Heart Song, and they are fine all summer long.

Veterans Honor is probably better than Grande Amore, which surprised me to conclude. It blooms more, and has prettier foliage. But it has the same flaw as Grand Amore which is that they are just far too large for a modern garden. Another popular red, Liebeszauber, has the same problem.

For fragrant reds, I would recommend Firefighter, Claret, and Alec's Red. None of them are perfect, but good fragrant reds are hard to come by. I would strongly recommend staying away from Lasting Love as a fragrant red if you live in an area with blackspot. It can and will completely defoliate from blackspot. Velvet Fragrance dehydrates if you even look at it sideways, even in cool climates, so I would avoid that rose, too.

Note: I have yet to test Rebell, which is states to be a good newer red, so I don't have info for that one.
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Initial post 28 MAR 13 by Noir
My Olympiad has barely any fragrance or possibly none at all. Is it because of the heat in our tropical climate?

Also, what's the darkest red Olympiad can get? I had a bloom that had dark edges once. I dunno what caused it.
Reply #1 of 1 posted today by Michael Garhart
Olympiad has never been for fragrance. It's a cuttable garden red, that grows in a lot of places. The darker red rim usually happens when it is quite cool. Olympiad can become pink-ish when it is really hot.
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Initial post today by plisa
Hi Marina!

I love the blends, and this rose is definitely the tops with the varied colors. Can't find any US suppliers. Where did you buy yours from?

Thank you,
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