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'Liberty' rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 14-955
most recent 19 FEB 07 SHOW ALL
Initial post 12 NOV 06 by jedmar
How come Liberty (1900) comes from Charles J. Grahame (1906)?
Reply #1 of 4 posted 13 NOV 06 by Cass
You pose a perturbing question because of the dates. That is the breeding published in Modern Roses at least back to 1958. The first Modern Roses (1930) does not list the parentage. By Modern Roses V (1958), the next that I own, the parentage is shown. If it is an error and you have a more accurate reference, we'd like to include it here.

Speculations? First, that the breeder (Dickson family bred both roses) didn't release Charles J. Grahame (the actual date may be 1905, not '06) until after it was used it for breeding for some time. Another is that this breeding information is qustionable. See the link to Colin Dickson and the reference to the destruction of breeding records in a 1921 fire. Furthermore, some breeders were known to be less than truthful about the parentage of their roses, a kind of early intellectual property rights protection. I have no information that the Dickson family ever engaged in that practice.
Reply #2 of 4 posted 17 NOV 06 by jedmar
Beside Liberty (1900, also Killarney (1898 or 1899) is said to be derived from Charles J. Grahame. This makes the date of 1906 quite improbable. In The Old Rose Advisor, Vol. II, p.218, Dickerson has two quotes on Charles J. Grahame from "Journal de Roses" Years 29 and 22. In the Bibliography he states that "Journal de Roses" was published 1877-1914. Year 29 would then correspond to 1905/6, but Year 22 to 1898/99! I believe Dickerson found the first quote from Year 29, established the breeding date as 1906 and never changed this although he later found a quote from Year 22. The date should be corrected to "before 1898" (provided the quotes are correct).
Reply #3 of 4 posted 19 FEB 07 by Matthew 0rwat
Because, 'Liberty' and 'Charles J. Grahame' were bred by Colin Dickson. Often, a rose is evaluated ten or more years before is introduced, and if it recieves favorable evaluations, it is used in a breeding program. Dickson decided it was so good and introduced it, albiet after Liberty
Reply #4 of 4 posted 19 FEB 07 by Cass
Yes! In addition to the evaluation period you mention, the "Bred By" dates are much closer to a date of first introduction. Many patent applications disclose that a seedling was selected on a date that predates the patent application by 7, 8 or 10 years.
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