HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
DescriptionPhotosLineageAwardsReferencesMember RatingsMember CommentsMember JournalsCuttingsGardensBuy From 
'Gruss an Coburg' rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 123-685
most recent 9 MAR 21 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 6 NOV 20 by Ambroise Paré
Hi. This rose was extensively used in Liguria for the cut market rose , and some growers still have it . It can be found often growing alongside‘ Safrano ‘ and ‘ indica major ‘ in what used to be abandoned fields, reclaimed by nature , perfectly healthy and gorgeous.
27 years I bought a bouquet of this Rose for what is now my best friend in Capri ( near Naples , at the opposite side of Italy ) at the local florist .
The scent was marvellous
REPLY
Reply #1 of 43 posted 25 FEB 21 by raingreen
Was this a winter cut flower? I am looking for roses that bloom well in winter.

Thanks, Nate
REPLY
Reply #2 of 43 posted 1 MAR 21 by Margaret Furness
The Tea Rose book recommends the following for winter blooms:
G Nabonnand and Peace (1902); General Schablikine; Lorraine Lee; "Angels Camp Tea"; Papa Gontier; Safrano and Isabella Sprunt.

Marie Nabonnand is good if you can get hold of it.
REPLY
Reply #3 of 43 posted 1 MAR 21 by Give me caffeine
I can confirm what Margaret and the infamous book said. The winter blooms on G. Nabonnand, Peace (1902) and Safrano are totally gorgeous, at least in a suitable climate. I haven't grown the others mentioned.

These are all Teas though, so don't have the long stems of modern roses bred for cutting. By modern standards it's quite strange that Safrano used to be regarded as a top florists' rose. These days they wouldn't even consider using it.

Anyway, the short version is that as far as I can tell, just about any recurrent rose will bloom in winter in the right climate.
REPLY
Reply #4 of 43 posted 1 MAR 21 by raingreen
Thank you both. This is for an experimental "waterless" (no water once-established) garden east of Los Angeles--the problem is in finding roses that are able to take advantage of the winter rains. Many roses remain half-dormant until mid/late winter. The old Tea rose 'Mrs. B. R. Cant' survives "waterless" conditions and shows the right seasonal characteristics but blooms are sensitive to rain and the canes scald under the harsh conditions. Preliminary results with 'Marie van Houtte' indicate that the plant is more sensitive to the dry heat than MBRC, and it's considered one of the toughest of the old varieties.

Experimenting with 'Papa Gontier' too, but based only on one plant, it appears to establish slowly, and will need the standard summer watering to make it to next winter. This will be for its second summer, all the other roses I've tried get big enough to make it waterless their second summer.

The Tea roses don't seem to be what I'm looking for I'm afraid.

Thanks, Nate
REPLY
Reply #5 of 43 posted 1 MAR 21 by Give me caffeine
If the canes are scalding that implies lack of foliage, which indicates another problem. In a suitable climate Teas never go dormant.

If you're inland, are you getting frosts? Teas hate frost.
REPLY
Reply #6 of 43 posted 1 MAR 21 by HubertG
Can you get any of the old Radiance family HT roses? They had a reputation for winter flowering in warm climates. I grew Red Radiance in Sydney at one point and it did winter flower well. Great fragrance too.
REPLY
Reply #7 of 43 posted 2 MAR 21 by Give me caffeine
'Mr. Lincoln' and the Meilland 'Peace' will flower in winter too. If Lincoln does it, my bet is 'Oklahoma' and 'Papa Meilland' would also do it. Haven't tried them yet, but since they share the same parentage I'd guess behaviour would be similar.
REPLY
Reply #9 of 43 posted 2 MAR 21 by raingreen
Yes HubertG 'Radiance' was what I had just settled on, great minds think alike!!!!!!!!
REPLY
Reply #14 of 43 posted 2 MAR 21 by HubertG
Hahaha!!

Also, maybe consider 'Anne Morrow Lindbergh' which is 'Melinda Gainsford' here in Australia. I haven't grown it but I'm very impressed with the winter flush in Cliff's photo under that file.

The bloom of 'Michele Meilland' has something of the beauty of a Tea Rose about it, and there are good winter flowers in the file of the climbing form. I grow the bush and find it's slow to establish though.

I've read where 'Christian Dior' winter flowers in warm climates.
REPLY
Reply #17 of 43 posted 2 MAR 21 by raingreen
Thanks HubertG I'll look these up!! Nate
REPLY
Reply #8 of 43 posted 2 MAR 21 by raingreen
Yes, they completely defoliate. Adjacent Madame Alfred Carriere seems better suited because even though it also gets some sunscald, it can easily send up a crop of new canes when it rains, unlike the Teas which want to grow from pre-existing branches.
REPLY
Reply #10 of 43 posted 2 MAR 21 by Margaret Furness
I'm in a Mediterranean climate, roughly zone 9b. I water my Teas and Chinas the first summer, but I also remove almost all flower buds the first summer. Many of them grew into bushes well-clothed to ground level.
REPLY
Reply #11 of 43 posted 2 MAR 21 by raingreen
Mrs. B. R. Cant is actually the only Tea I have experience with under waterless conditions, so I should have qualified my answer. It defoliates completely for me in summer.

The China 'Old Blush' actually is more sunscald resistant than MBRC and also defoliates completely in summer.

Please note, this is all an experiment. I don't believe MBRC is suitable to the 'waterless' treatment, and 'Old Blush', while doing better than MBRC, may not be suitable long term. They both have been waterless for 2 years at a location 15 miles/24 kilometers east of Los Angeles.

MBRC is to the left and I cheated by showing her when her canes were still healthy, in summer 2019. 'Old Blush', to the right, was taken November 2020 before the rains started.
REPLY
Reply #12 of 43 posted 2 MAR 21 by Give me caffeine
Roses aren't desert plants. If you don't get any rain in summer, and won't or can't water them, and if the place is so hot and dry that the entire state goes up in flames every summer, then maybe roses aren't the right plants.
REPLY
Reply #15 of 43 posted 2 MAR 21 by raingreen
He he. My hypothesis is that if roses show heat tolerance, dessication tolerance and the ability to grow in winter, they should make it--and if they can, why not use them? I think the bare roses look sculptural. Vive la difference!

Also, here in California we have the endangered species Rosa minutifolia which comes from even drier habitat than where my garden is. The two species Rosa odorata and Rosa chinensis come from a xeric limestone soil type in China (the soil holds very little water).

Nate
REPLY
Reply #18 of 43 posted 2 MAR 21 by Give me caffeine
Well if you like the sculptural look, why were you complaining about defoliation before? Seems to be a bit contradictory to vive la sculptural and grumble about defoliation.

The provinces that are the natural habitat of R. chinensis may have limestone soil, but they are also classified as having a humid subtropical climate, with most rain occurring in summer and a fair amount of it. For that matter a lot of England has limestone under it, but the climate is nothing like California and roses that do well in England would be unlikely to survive under your regime.

If R. minutifolia is adapted to harsher conditions than your neighbourhood, and to winter rains, and is native to the state, and is endangered, why not grow that? I haven't looked them up, but I believe there are also several other native Californian roses.

It might also be worth trying something like Rosa primula. That comes from a pretty harsh area.
REPLY
Reply #19 of 43 posted 2 MAR 21 by raingreen
Oh I see. No, not complaining about defoliation, but sunscald. Why don't I grow minutifolia? Don't like the esthetics of the plant. I did grow it for my waterless student project. It definitely was a 'winter grower', sending out surprisingly large horizontal 5 foot/1.5 meter basals in a wet January. The height was only 75 cm. I was looking for a more upright shrub shape and also prefer roses with larger leaves.

It's conjecture, but the tendency of the old chinas and teas to go dormant in summer and thrive in winter may indicate they're set up to be winter active in habitat. The chinas tend to be evergreen in winter, even sometimes in USDA climate zone 8. The natural bloom period for odorata is January (in the habitat in Yunnan China). Also the summer conditions in habitat for both species are wicked for black spot. Some botanist needs to study the ecology of the two species (chinensis and odorata) in habitat. Who knows--I've been wrong before.....
REPLY
Reply #20 of 43 posted 2 MAR 21 by Give me caffeine
I vaguely remember someone else in California saying that Chinas worked really well for her, in a harsh spot and with very little care. I can't recall who it was (she is an HMF member) or exactly where she was in Ca.

Chinas and Teas usually hate frost and want to be evergreen if the climate allows it, but I don't think they're particularly set up to go dormant in summer and thrive in winter. I think it's more that they're naturally active all year for both foliage and blooms, but will go into survival mode if there's too much heat and not enough water, so drop foliage to cut down on transpiration. But, unlike true xerophytes, it's not something they're really ok with.

They are usually pretty resistant to black spot though, which makes sense in a rose that has evolved to deal with hot and wet summers.

Re sun scald: it has occurred to me that the old orchard trick of limewashing the stems might be worth trying on roses that have defoliated in hot conditions. I've never tried it, but it's supposed to be good protection for fruit trees that are short of foliage (ie: recently pruned, or deciduous).
REPLY
Reply #21 of 43 posted 3 MAR 21 by raingreen
I had heard that there was something based on kaolin clay that was like a sunblock for plants, similar to what you suggest. We'll see about this 'waterless rose' thing. Thinking back, observations by Mike Shoup/Antique Rose Emporium in Texas on summer dormancy of the Chinese roses, including summer defoliation, small flowers, and a general dullness during summers heat, influenced my thinking. According to him in Empress of the Garden, the subtropical roses respond more quickly to cooler, moister weather than other rose types. This makes it seem like they are adapted to pull in their horns in hot, dry weather but then return to a lush, green state upon the rains.
REPLY
Reply #22 of 43 posted 6 MAR 21 by ....
Post deleted by user
REPLY
Reply #23 of 43 posted 7 MAR 21 by Margaret Furness
Maybe the combination of structural and waterless is asking too much of roses. Photo today, late summer, with clutter of pots. Left to right Mme Jules Thibaut (Poly-Tea), Peace 1902 (Tea) in the background needing pruning, Sunlit, Comtesse du Cayla (China-Tea) in front of Lady Huntingfield (HT), White Cecile Brunner (Poly-Tea).
First summer: mulched heavily, watered weekly, almost all flower buds removed. Second summer: watered monthly. Not watered since except when I was planning to take cuttings. Not pruned except as picking flowers or taking cuttings. Mediterranean climate, average rainfall about 22 inches, mainly in winter; usually one summer downpour. South Australia, zone roughly 9b.
REPLY
Reply #25 of 43 posted 7 MAR 21 by ....
Post deleted by user
REPLY
Reply #26 of 43 posted 7 MAR 21 by raingreen
Margaret, yes, perhaps. We don't know at this point. We DO have Rosa minutifolia as an example of something that is adapted to the waterless medit conditions. But like I said, I didn't care for the plant. Some also say minutifolia is only adapted to the coolth of the coast---I'm not sure about that. I had a few plants in full sun in Pomona, which is many miles inland.

In the French and Italian Riviera, commercial Tea roses were not watered in summer. Granted, the climate is more rainy than southern California and South Australia. Gertrude Jekyll, in Roses for English Gardens : Roses in English Gardens on the Riviera: "Tea Roses, which not only bear but enjoy the summer heat and drought, flowering freely in November and December after the autumn rains and pruning, are cultivated
not only in gardens, but as a field crop, and the December crop of bloom is the most
valuable, so that everything yields to that."

Henry Bennet, the breeder of Mrs. John Laing, wrote an interesting article, The Resting of Roses by Drought and Heat on the Genoese Riviera, in "The Gardeners' chronicle : a weekly illustrated journal of horticulture and allied subjects" in 1881: "In warm
and dry climates, such as that of the Genoese Riviera,
it loses all but a few terminal leaves when the dry
heat of summer begins, remains alive but dormant,
and only awakens to life and to growth when the
autumn rains reach the roots ; instantly the leaves and
buds burst forth, and in about six weeks it flowers
freely, though not as freely as in spring.

It is this fact that forcibly struck Mr. Paul, and
with a perspicacity that honours him he saw at once
that the Mentone climate could be imitated, and he
has succeeded, it appears, in producing identical
results. After the spring flowering he put a lot of
Tea Roses in a stove, leaving them all but without
water for two months, in gentle heat, thereby securing
the Mentone rest ; he then watered them in a cooler
temperature, with the result Mr. Fish describes.............In a recent
number of the Gardeners^ Chronicle Mr. Fish, in
giving an account of the floral e.xhibition at Manches-
ter, spoke in glowing terms of Mr. George Paul's Tea
Roses in pots. It appears that they were in vigorous
health, covered with bloom ; and Mr. Fish states that
Mr. Paul's great success in thus blooming Tea Roses
in the autumn constitutes quite a new era in Rose
culture."


Thanks, Nate
REPLY
Reply #28 of 43 posted 7 MAR 21 by Margaret Furness
Thank you: That's an intriguing quote.
REPLY
Reply #24 of 43 posted 7 MAR 21 by raingreen
Veilchenblau, got a good laugh, good one.

Grey water is important, but waterless is important too...for the most part, just as an example. I wasn't able to find a waterless garden in southern California when I did my research. At least there is one now :-).

Waterless gardens are too severe for most people. And the roses are just an experiment. But if people can realize they can grow old favorites like roses or iris in waterless gardens, than perhaps they can realize that waterless isn't that bad. I remember moving to an eastern state, South Carolina, from California, and latching on to the pine forests because they reminded me of the forests in California. The forests with the broadleaved trees I was unfamiliar with, and didn't like as much. Later I learned to like them as well. But if you are proposing something new, it's important to keep something old and familiar. That's why I'm trying to include the roses, provided they work.

There are a lot of native plants in the garden including many types of Sage. In my opinion the best plant in the garden is Salvia 'Trident', which is a hybrid between a couple of different native species. It starts blooming much earlier than most of the native species. Here it is in late summer:

Nate
REPLY
Reply #27 of 43 posted 7 MAR 21 by ....
Post deleted by user
REPLY
Reply #29 of 43 posted 8 MAR 21 by Give me caffeine
Do you know any plants that repel aphids?
REPLY
Reply #30 of 43 posted 8 MAR 21 by Margaret Furness
Can't answer that, but insects didn't attack "Mrs Heggie's Red Tea";, which is probably Beaute Inconstante. It gets huge.
You can buy ladybirds and predatory wasps on line, to attack the smaller critters. Not much use against possums.
REPLY
Reply #37 of 43 posted 8 MAR 21 by Give me caffeine
Yes I remember BC being mentioned years ago. Used to be sold as Papillon. But I was curious about whether any other plants might actually repel aphids, rather than a rose they just didn't munch on. Various plants repel mosquitos, so maybe there are plants that tend to repel aphids.

(Incidentally I would like to try BC/AMHRT/Papillon/whatever-someone-is-calling-it-this-week.)

Edit: Took a quick look around. A compilation from various sources (Wiki, ABC, several others) suggests these plants. I could test some next to Souvenir de St. Anne's. Aphids absolutely love SdSA. The list gives me several other ideas too, since I know other plants with similar scents.

Basil, catnip, chives, clovers, coriander, dill, epazote (Dysphania ambrosioides), eucalyptus, fennel, garlic, larkspurs, lavender (used by Sydney Botanic Gardens), marigolds, oregano, peppermint, petunias, spearmint, sweet marjoram, wormwood.

Some sources say nasturtiums and crepe myrtles attract aphids, just in case anyone wants to.
REPLY
Reply #31 of 43 posted 8 MAR 21 by ....
comment removed by user
REPLY
Reply #32 of 43 posted 8 MAR 21 by Give me caffeine
All sounds like good starting points. I'll look into them.

The lavender I grow is L. dentata (French lavender) as that seems to be the most durable in the sub-tropics. Although I do keep meaning to try augustifolia. It might work in a pot, if moved under cover during downpours.
REPLY
Reply #33 of 43 posted 8 MAR 21 by ....
comment removed by user
REPLY
Reply #34 of 43 posted 8 MAR 21 by ....
comment removed by user
REPLY
Reply #35 of 43 posted 8 MAR 21 by raingreen
French Lavender is a good performer in my waterless garden. We also have Desert Lavender, with a scent reminiscent of Cardamom, one of the best herbal scents of all, but then again the S. clevelandii types like 'Allen Chickering' are incredible too--doesn't have the harsh scent of some sage types, it's almost floral but also very rich and savory.
REPLY
Reply #36 of 43 posted 8 MAR 21 by ....
Post deleted by user
REPLY
Reply #38 of 43 posted 8 MAR 21 by Margaret Furness
Good point. And it's not just spring-flowers that sucker and survive. "Portland from Glendora" and John Hopper and Quatre Saisons are fairly common roadies here (until the Council workers come past with glyphos). The ramblers also survive on roadsides here because they root down. I recall a farmer looking at Dorothy Perkins and saying, "As bad as blackberry".
Teas, Chinas and early HTs also survive in old gardens in SA - I wouldn't abandon them yet. But I would water the roses the first two summers. I also sprinkle "water-saving" (hygroscopic) crystals in the planting hole.
REPLY
Reply #39 of 43 posted 8 MAR 21 by Give me caffeine
I agree that expecting a Tea to go without being watered over summer after one year is really pushing things.

You could just add more organic matter to the planting hole, or some vermiculite, or even biochar if you can get it locally. Any of those will help to hold water and nutrients. They'll also help aeration if that's relevant (I don't know what the local soil is like).
REPLY
Reply #40 of 43 posted 9 MAR 21 by raingreen
Hunh. Thanks for all you tips. We'll see if they make it. The 'Old Blush' is as tough as they come, I didn't even give it much water the FIRST summer.

I agree the Teas are either more sensitive or slower to establish than some of the other roses. Was looking at the 'Marie van Houtte' yesterday, it's a picture with the large hanging pink and yellow flowers. It's in the same bed as 'Old Blush' but was planted much later and has been watered til now. It isn't nearly as tough as the China, the canes scalded during the several heat waves last summer.
REPLY
Reply #41 of 43 posted 9 MAR 21 by Margaret Furness
What they say about Teas on their own roots: the first year they sleep, the second year they creep, the third year they leap, and then they go on forever.
REPLY
Reply #42 of 43 posted 9 MAR 21 by ....
post deleted by user
REPLY
Reply #43 of 43 posted 9 MAR 21 by ....
post deleted.
REPLY
Reply #13 of 43 posted 2 MAR 21 by Ambroise Paré
Yes’ Gruss an coburg’ was for Winter flowering cut roses. It has an excellent vase life, like most Tea roses, and fantastically scented. It withstand drought very well. A great rose
REPLY
Reply #16 of 43 posted 2 MAR 21 by raingreen
THANKS!!! Like this rose. Nate
REPLY
Discussion id : 118-063
most recent 25 APR 20 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 18 AUG 19 by happymaryellen
I absolutely love the color of this rose and I love the fragrance of this rose. I have to say that it is extremely leggy for me. Is it leggy for anybody else?
REPLY
Reply #1 of 2 posted 25 APR 20 by goncmg
Hi there! I am finally growing this for the first time although I have known about this variety since I was a child. I also love it! The scent is amazing. To me it smells like baby aspirin but I love it! Super sweet, strong, citrus-y but not sharp. LEGGY. YES YES YES. Is having a tough time holding the canes up with blooms on them. Willowy, wiry, tall. Grows fast. Is growing in full sun but looks like a plant growing in some notable shade. This may get on my nerves later on but for now I am kind of in love, think the plant has a heck of a lot of personality. You would never mistake this for anything else.
REPLY
Reply #2 of 2 posted 25 APR 20 by happymaryellen
And thanks for letting me know mines not the only leggy one. And I’m with you about the fragrance!unbelievable!
REPLY
Discussion id : 5-551
most recent 18 JUL 18 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 25 FEB 04 by Unregistered Guest
I have read about a climbing version of Gruss An Coburg, with identical blooming and scent habit, but I couldn't find it in any catalogue. Does it really exist?
REPLY
Reply #1 of 2 posted 10 MAR 04 by Unregistered Guest
Gruss An Conburg Climbing does really exist. I found it on the catalogue by NINO SANREMO, Italy. Grouth: 4 meters. Fragrance: strong. Repeting: very good for a climber, even if not so abundant like the bush variety after the great spring blooming.
REPLY
Reply #2 of 2 posted 18 JUL 18 by perpetua
Fabien Ducher(France) has it too.
REPLY
Discussion id : 110-524
most recent 4 MAY 18 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 4 MAY 18 by Nola Z5a WI
Rogue Valley Roses lists Gruss an Coburg as zone 5.
REPLY
Reply #1 of 1 posted 4 MAY 18 by Patricia Routley
Thanks.
REPLY
© 2024 HelpMeFind.com