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'Perpétuelle semi-double' rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 128-404
most recent 5 JUL HIDE POSTS
Initial post 5 JUL by thebig-bear
I have to say I'm a little confused about Fedtschenkoana being the pollen parent of the Damasks.

While I am in no way any kind of genetics expert, and indeed I am only just now starting to grasp some of the very basics, I do feel that in this instance things do not add up for me, no matter what way around I think of this - and this is why.

According to Hurst's septet theory (which I don't believe has been debunked, but please correct me if I'm wrong) and all the scientific (including genetic studies) discussions that I have found by all manner of people far more qualified than me, R. Moshata is described as an A septet diploid, R. Gallica as an A and C septet tetraploid, and R. Fedtschenkoana as a B and D septet tetraploid. These designations would fit with all the characteristics and traits of the three roses in question, so no problems there.

Now as I understand this, the initial cross between Moschata X Gallica would result in a triploid hybrid (fertile or otherwise, but that is not really relevant here). So far so reasonable. But- if this hybrid was then pollinated by Fedtschenkoana, surely the result would be something along the lines of an irregular A, B, C, D septet tetraploid - somewhat like the original seedling from Pernet Ducher's cross that subsequently led to Soleil d'Or. (Or even something like an A, A, B, C, D, pentaploid?) Yet nowhere have I seen this fact discussed, let alone explained.

Am I missing something, or does that not add up with the finding of all 4 of the oldest of the Damasks as A and C septet tetraploids? Where did the B and D go?!

Any thoughts? Much obliged in advance.

I've pinned this comment on the Fedtschenkoana page as well.
Discussion id : 120-326
most recent 26 FEB 20 SHOW ALL
Initial post 23 FEB 20 by CybeRose
Medecyn-boec (1582)
Dr. Christoph Wirsung (Wirtsung in the book)

Rosa autumnalis — winter roose

Dodoens (1578) identified Rosa autumnalis as the Musk rose.

Wirtsung, however, gave a handful of Musk rose synonyms (Alexandrina, Caroneola [sic], Damascena, Muscata/Moscata, and Syriaca) but distinguished R. autumnalis as the "winter roose".

Ein neuwes Artzney Buch (1577)
Dr. Christoph Wirsung

Rosa autumnalis — haberrose
Reply #1 of 8 posted 23 FEB 20 by jedmar
There is some confusion about these early German names. "Haberrose" means "Oats Rose" and was apparently a name given to a wils rose which was often found on oats fields. I have seen it identified as Rosa arvensis, Rosa canina or Ros rubiginosa, with white or red blooms.
Wirsung in his "Ein new Artzney Buch" in the register for
Rosa autumnalis. HerbstRose. Such Pappelen. (see Poplars).
Under Pappeln, we find: "Das vierdte Geschlecht der Pappeln/ ist das schöne Gewechs/ dass wir Ehrenrosen/Herbstrosen/Halssrosen/Breunrosen/ unnnd Winterrosen nennen/ heisst Griechisch Molóche, Lateinisch bey dem Apuleio Hastula regia, Bey den Bräutlern Malua transmarina, Rosa transmarina, Rosa hyemalis, unnd Rosa autumnalis. Die Apotecker nennen es Maluam arboram."
[The fourth species of poplars id the beautiful plant which we call Honour roses/Autumn roses/Neck roses/Brown roses/called Moloché in Greek/ in Latin by Apuleius Hastula regia, with brides Malua transmarina, Rosa transmarina, Rosa hyemalis, and Rosa autumnalis. The apothecaries call it Maluam arboram.]
Moloché is Malva, i.e. mallow. For Hastula regia I find White asphodel or Pseudoasphodelus alpinum = Anthericum ramosum. Rosa hyemalis means Winter rose. For Rosa transmarina = Mauve de Jardin, Malva romana, Pappel-Rosen, Rosen-Pappel, Herbst-Rosen (Rosa autumnalis, as it apperas only in autumn), Winter-Rosen (Rosa hyemalis, as they bloom at the harvest until into winter).
Clearly Rosa autumnalis and Rosa hyemalis in this context is the Mallow.
Reply #2 of 8 posted 23 FEB 20 by CybeRose
Thanks, Jedmar. I was google-translating, and getting Pappelen = Apples (Dutch).

I assume that Rosa Punicea was another name for the dark red rose, rather than R. foetida bicolor. The same name was sometimes later used for the Crimson China.

It is strange to see Rosa palustris and R. arvensis as names for non-roses.

What is "Bisem Rose"?

Reply #3 of 8 posted 23 FEB 20 by Jay-Jay
Apples = Appels in Dutch.
Pappel is German for Poplar
Reply #4 of 8 posted 24 FEB 20 by jedmar
Bisam-Rose (Bisem is an old spelling) is Rosa moschata. Bisam is the Musk rat Ondathra zibethicus.
Reply #5 of 8 posted 24 FEB 20 by CybeRose
Thank you, Jedmar. You are a great help as always.

And how peculiar. Reading Wirsung's lists, it is no surprise to see a Hondroose (Dog Rose). Then I learned that the yellow rose (gele, geel, gheele) was also called Rosa vulpina, Fox Rose. And now you tell me about the Musk Rat Rose.

I'm still puzzling over: soeckt Roose, Rosa punicea.
Reply #6 of 8 posted 24 FEB 20 by jedmar
Yes Fuchs-Rose (fox rose) is Rosa foetida. Punicea comes from Latin puniceus (purplish red) and was used for Austrian Copper; but often also in the form phoeniceo/phoenicea when a purple colouring was meant. I think you have "soeckt Roose, Rosa punicea" from a index in Dutch, where "soeckt" is an old form for see/seek.
Reply #7 of 8 posted 25 FEB 20 by CybeRose
So, I was trying to reconcile two lists, one German and one Dutch. No wonder I was getting confused.
Thanks again for your valuable help.
Reply #8 of 8 posted 26 FEB 20 by CybeRose
And ultimately from the Greek Phoiníkē (purple people).

However, I have a sense that some later writers may have been referring to pomegranate flowers (Mala punica / Punica granatum).

Ferrari (1633) described a Hippeastrum (possibly H. puniceum). The flowers were "purpura in crocum languente coloratos". This reads like a recipe: purpura (from the Murex mollusk) mixed with a little saffron. In the Italian translation of 1638 the color was simply "rancio" (orange).
Discussion id : 88-528
most recent 10 OCT 19 SHOW ALL
Initial post 5 OCT 15 by styrax
It is interesting that the hips have the same shape as Fedtschenkoana. They all seem to contain 1 giant nut of a seed(achene).
Reply #1 of 1 posted 10 OCT 19 by Hardy
I'm happy to say that the marginal female fertility is not very heritable. My AD seedlings have all been significantly better seed bearers than that, and one which looks for all the world like a selfing, eventually displayed one non-damascena trait; it developed spherical hips almost like a musk's, but bigger, with 5 or so achenes each. R. damascena cannot be expected to breed true, its mixture of gallica, musk and fedtschenkoana is going to recombine and express itself slightly differently almost every time, even in selfings. Pink Leda was also a good seed bearer for me, despite looking like a 100% pure damascena. So if anyone's interested in breeding Damasks, but finds the very low hip fertility of the oldest types to be a hinderance, cross them with anything, even themselves, and expect it to go away.
Discussion id : 117-463
most recent 8 JUL 19 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 8 JUL 19 by AquaEyes
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