HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
DescriptionPhotosLineageAwardsReferencesMember RatingsMember CommentsMember JournalsCuttingsGardensBuy From 
'Perpétuelle semi-double' rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 106-821
most recent 10 DEC 17 SHOW ALL
Initial post 4 DEC 17 by CybeRose
De florum cultura libri IV, 1633, p. 203
Giovanni Battista Ferrari
(Rosa) Italica flore suaviter rubente perpetua, proximè superioribus duabus persimilis, densioribus saeuit aculeis.
= (Rosa) Italica flore pleno perpetua.
Reply #1 of 10 posted 4 DEC 17 by jedmar
Great find! This moves the 'Autumn Damask' to almost 100 years earlier. The description of Ferrari mentions similarity to the two foregoing entries. Can you see these, too?
Reply #2 of 10 posted 4 DEC 17 by CybeRose
I can see them, but reading them is a bit of a challenge. Ferrari used margin notes instead of paragraph breaks. These are not entirely clear. The following passage seems to represent three varieties: Damascena multiplex [Double Moschata?], Subrubens flore multiplici, and Variegata flore pleno. Therefore, the previous two would be Damasks in the modern sense.

Also, è appears to be an abbreviation for et.

[Damascena multiplex]
[Subrubens flore multiplici. R. Dodon ib. Ioan. Bapt. Porta ibide.]
[Variegata flore pleno. R. Dodon. ib.]
Odoratae pallidaeque pleno flore Damascenae rosae, quam Plinii Coroneolam alii, alii spineolam interpretantur, è viride purpurascentem caudicem, ramosaque inde silvula diffusas saturo colore virentes virgas obarmant spinae admodum infrequentes, breves, durae, rubidae, lata è basi recursos in aculeos uncinatae. Vulgari sativae densis foliis leviter ex albo rubescenti, quam aut Plinianam Alabandicam, aut Trachiniam esse scriptores sanè nobiles autumant, virgei rami breviores, graciliores, subvirides, minorum grandiorumque spinarum promiscuè crebris, languido pallore lividis, intentisque mucronibus minaces. Quae variè diluto foliosifloris rubore maculosa, Praenestina dicitur, asperitate pariter aculeata inhorrescit.
Reply #5 of 10 posted 6 DEC 17 by jedmar
For two of these roses, Ferrari is referring to Dodoens (probably "Cruydteboek") I can track it from there. The second reference to Ioan. Bapt. Porta is Giambattista delal Porta, who seems to have referred to Roses in his "Magia naturalis" of 1589.
Reply #8 of 10 posted 8 DEC 17 by CybeRose
I have looked through a few editions of della Porta's 'Magia Naturalis' (1544, 1562, 1607). I have found no mention of a Rose that was inherently reblooming. However, he did give some vague methods having roses out of season. For instance, to have blooms in January, water the plants twice a day during the summer.

Here is one (the same in 1544 and 1607) for late roses.

Rosas serotinas habere, Modum habet à Florentino edoctum. Si tunc ceraso vitem inseruisti, nunc rosam malorum cortici inoculari permitte; peregrino enim in corpore concrescens, & adolescens, quo dabat arbor fructus tempore, dehiscet rosa, mira odoris iucunditate, & pulchritudine redolens, omnibus spectari, & contemplari se sinit. Et tandem omnes fructus eiusmodi insitione tardiores efficiemus. Alter modus erit prima germina decutiendo; nam alia regerminando tempus teritur, & coelo indulgente, tardissimè maturabunt fructus, & hoc modo valemus.

Google translate is giving me some odd results. It seems that roses were budded onto cherry vines (?). That doesn't sound right.
Reply #9 of 10 posted 9 DEC 17 by jedmar
Yes, I have seen these passages; they are not directly relevant for us, so I only added when he speaks of Rosa alba and Rosa rubra. It seems, however, that already in the 16th century roses were being forced to bloom out of season. May be not for decorative purposes, but to have material to prepare medical concoctions.
It is also indeed possible that della Porta was grafting roses on cherry branches (they are also Rosaceae) in order to have a special effect - he speaks of the the strange combination of the beauty of the tree and the sweet fragrance of the Blooms!
Reply #10 of 10 posted 10 DEC 17 by CybeRose
Also for decorative purposes.
Gerard (1597) These flower from the end of May to the ende of August, and divers times after, by reason the tops and superfluous branches are cut away in the end of the flowring; and then do they sometimes flower even untill October, and after.
Reply #3 of 10 posted 4 DEC 17 by CybeRose
Hanmer (1659) also discussed the Monthly Rose = Rosa italica.

Joncquet (1659) Rosa omnium calendarum flore pleno carneo D. Boutin.
Eadem flore simplici purpureo?

Austen (1657), "But besides there is a Rose-tree, called the Monthly Rose, which beares Roses untill the coldness of the winter stop it, about November."
Reply #4 of 10 posted 4 DEC 17 by CybeRose
Some more alleged synonyms listed separately by Loddiges in his 1820 catalog:
71 portland
165 blush monthly
569 pestana
264 red monthly 
276 bifera carnea
280 white monthly 
617 perpetuelle rouge vif
660 tout les mois coeur gris
Reply #6 of 10 posted 6 DEC 17 by Andrew from Dolton
I think some of those names are also listed in John Abercrombie's Everyman His Own Gardener.
Reply #7 of 10 posted 7 DEC 17 by CybeRose
My point is that Loddiges apparently thought that pestana, monthly, tout les mois, and bifera (at least) deserved different names.

I don't know how these varieties differed, though, because his catalog contained no descriptions aside from the names.
Discussion id : 106-813
most recent 4 DEC 17 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 3 DEC 17 by CybeRose
A Catalogue of Greenhouse Plants: Hardy Trees and Shrubs, Herbaceous, etc. (1783)
By Daniel Grimwood
menstrua -- Red-flowered Monthly Rose.
menstrua alba -- White-flowered Monthly Rose.
menst. portlandica -- Portland Crimson Monthly Rose.
menst. variegata -- Striped-flowered Monthly Rose.
menst. corymbosa -- Red Cluster-flowered Monthly Rose. (Best for forcing.)
Reply #1 of 1 posted 4 DEC 17 by jedmar
Karl, it seems that the 'Cluster-flowered Monthly Rose' is distinct from the 'Autumn Damask'. I will move the former synonym to 'Damascena corymbosa'
Discussion id : 106-686
most recent 28 NOV 17 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 28 NOV 17 by CybeRose
H. C. Andrews (1805) wrote that some people mistakenly supposed that 'La Rose de quatre Saisons' was the same as the Monthly Rose. He insisted that they were quite different. Münchhausen, below, wrote that the quatre Saisons was "probably" the monthly rose.

Der Hausvater: Mit Kupfern. 1. Anweisung, wie kleine Lustwälder, Pflanzungen und ... (1770) p. 364
By Otto von Münchhausen

La Rose de quatre Saisons. (Bermuthlich die Monat-Rose.) [trans. Probably the Monthly Rose]
La Rose de Princesse, ou de May & Septembre.
La Rose à la Reine double & incarnate, très petite & magnifique.
La Rose couleur de feu double.
Discussion id : 99-598
most recent 22 OCT 17 SHOW ALL
Initial post 19 MAY 17 by Andrew from Dolton
The parentage of 'Quatre Saisons Blanc Mousseux' is given as "Sport of 'Autumn Damask', but 'Autumn Damask' does not list 'Quatre Saisons Blanc Mousseux' as one of its sports.
Reply #1 of 15 posted 19 MAY 17 by Patricia Routley
Yes it does Andrew, but a little hard to recognise. One of the sports of 'Quatre Saisons' ('Autumn Damask') is listed as 'Rosier de Thionville', which is a synonym of 'Quatre Saisons Blanc Mousseux'.
Reply #2 of 15 posted 20 MAY 17 by Andrew from Dolton
'Quatre Saisons Blanc Mousseux' is just coming into flower for the first time, in my garden, I am VERY excited!
Reply #3 of 15 posted 21 OCT 17 by thebig-bear
Hi Andrew,
How did 'Quatre Saison Blanc Mousseux' perform for you, and what did you think of it?
My Quatre Saison is a beautiful flower, when it doesn't ball, and it never repeats for some reason, no matter what I do with it.
Reply #4 of 15 posted 21 OCT 17 by Andrew from Dolton
Hello Steve,

'Quatre Saison Blanc Mousseux' has grown quite well on a sunny bank in "soil" that is almost pure shillet. It tried to flower well but as you say they ball easily. Very healthy, no signs of blackspot. An attempt at remontance was thwarted by the weather.
Reply #5 of 15 posted 21 OCT 17 by thebig-bear
I'm giving mine another year as one last chance to redeem itself - well, that's probably a bit harsh, as when it does it's stuff it's amazingly beautiful, but I do have a bit of a 50/50 relationship with it. I've tried the "cut it down low in Dec/Jan" tactic, and I've tired the "leave it alone and see what happens" approach. The only difference it seems to make is the amount of growth production, although to be fair it did flower more profusely this year after the hard trim. This time I might try pegging the long stems down to see what that does.
Reply #6 of 15 posted 21 OCT 17 by Margaret Furness
Quatre Saisons is a survivor rose in old cemetries and roadsides in my area (zone 9b, Mediterranean climate), often sporting to (or reverting from) Quatre Saisons Blanc Mousseux. So is Kazanlik (Trigintipetala). I'm being simplistic rather than looking closely, but if it repeats, I call it QS; if it doesn't, I assume it's Kazanlik. Are you sure which one you have? Or is it a climate difference that causes lack of repeat?
I agree with the writer who said the buds of QSBM are better than the flowers. QSBM leaves and stems look dusty to me; maybe the moss catches dust. But I haven't noticed that on other mosses.
Reply #7 of 15 posted 21 OCT 17 by Andrew from Dolton
The blooms have a disorganised shape but their damask fragrance is divine. The buds have their covering of moss that has the most delicious resin scent; even if the flowers ball before they open.
Reply #9 of 15 posted 21 OCT 17 by thebig-bear
Hi Andrew,
Yes, the scent is stupendously good, and so different from the 'damask' usually quoted in different more modern roses. This is about as pure as it gets. Interesting that the White Moss version has the extra benefit of scented mossy buds. I might look into getting one of those.

P.s. btw, did you receive my reply the other day alright?
Reply #8 of 15 posted 21 OCT 17 by thebig-bear
Hi Margaret,
Yes, it could be that I don't have the right plant - however, I think it probably is as I got it from a reputable grower. The other thing that makes me think that it is down to either my lack of understading it's needs, due to the climate, or something else unexplained, is that my Duchess of Portland does exactly the same thing - it flowers beautifully once and that is it, it never even shows signs of repeat, just lots and lots of growing. Mine is around 5/6 feet tall at the moment, which I don't think it should be - in fact I have just had to move it as it was getting far too big for the space. At least where Quatre Saison is it is able to be big if it wants to.

As I said earlier, based on Graham Thomas' suggetion for increased repeat flowering in the books I have, I cut these two and Comte de Chambord down to about a quarter of their size in December, and, admittedly, they have all grown stupendously, but only Comte de Chambord has benefitted from better rebloom. The others just gave a pretty good show for 3/4 weeks and that was that.

Any ideas what to try next? I wondered if they need watering more or something.
Reply #10 of 15 posted 21 OCT 17 by Andrew from Dolton
All moss roses (and some other types too) have resinous glands around the buds and new shoots that have a lovely scent. Another moss rose with ugly flowers is 'Mousseux du Japon', it has a strong pure rose oil fragrance; but the moss? Well you can have too much of a good thing!
Reply #11 of 15 posted 22 OCT 17 by Margaret Furness
The roadside survivors are in areas of average rainfall 700-750mm, with intermittent drought thanks to El Nino, and they don't get extra water. So I doubt that it's lack of water that's your problem. Not that I'm an expert on growing; my rose knowledge is largely theoretical.
Even the big nurseries get burnt with wrong labels at times.
Reply #12 of 15 posted 22 OCT 17 by Patricia Routley
I have two bushes of 'Trigintipetala' (own roots from the Pinjarra Heritage Rose Garden in 1997) in what is now a fairly shaded area. I continue to marvel that in 20 years, I have never seen ONE bloom on these two bushes. They get the same ferty regime as all other roses here.
Reply #13 of 15 posted 22 OCT 17 by Margaret Furness
I marvel at your perseverance!
Reply #14 of 15 posted 22 OCT 17 by thebig-bear
So do I!
Reply #15 of 15 posted 22 OCT 17 by Andrew from Dolton
Perhaps they need a baking in full sun?
© 2021