HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
Andrew from Dolton
most recent today HIDE POSTS
Initial post today by Robert Neil Rippetoe
Wow, I've never seen it so purple. Must be your climate and soil conditions.

Here in CA it can look nearly pink.
Reply #1 of 2 posted today by Andrew from Dolton
You have stronger hotter sunshine, here it is very similar in colour to mauve ramblers like 'Veilchenblau' and 'Bleu Magenta'.
Reply #2 of 2 posted today by Andrew from Dolton
Oh, no, sorry Robert you are right. I've put a picture of 'Baby Faurax' in the 'Mr Bluebird' profile by mistake. It has now been reassigned, thank you for pointing it out.
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Initial post 14 JUL 15 by Patricia Routley
It is feasible that Nancy Lindsay brought back this rose from Persia between 1935-1939. Was she the person who named it 'Pompon des Princes' and did Graham Stuart Thomas rename it 'Ispahan'?
Reply #1 of 5 posted 23 JUL 16 by Hardy
I've read that the book, 'Rosen - die große Enzyklopädie,' states that it was brought to England by Norah Lindsay, but don't have that book, can't vouch for its alleged contents, and wonder about it giving credit to the wrong Lindsay. Google Books informs me that GST mentions it as Ispahan, Rose d'Isfahan, and Pompon des Princes on p. 157 of 'The Old Shrub Roses' (1955), but I gather that no origin is specified there. Since he credits Nancy Lindsay when mentioning Rose de Rescht, Gloire de Guilan, etc., I'd wonder at his not mentioning her in relation to Ispahan.
<edited to update>
Pages 143-8 of GST's 'Cuttings from My Garden Notebook' have much to say about Nancy Lindsay and her roses, and the relevant points I noticed were:
She felt at perfect liberty to name found roses which she could not identify, though all but a few were later identified by others as already known and named cultivars. (I just added a comment at 'Empress Josephine' giving GST's main quote on the subject.)

She was very jealous and protective of her roses, and flew into a rage when she discovered that GST had obtained budwood of them from Kew, as she had let Kew have them only because she had been unable to care for them for a while, and believed she had an agreement that Kew would not share them with anyone. While she didn't feel too strongly about garden cultivars she found in cities, like Rose de Rescht and Gloire de Guilan, she was livid that Rose d'Hivers had been shared. She said that she'd risked her life in the wilds of Persia to get it, and considered it her very personal baby. She also did not consider its name to be final; she said that before Kew shared it, "I ought to have had stock of it first, and had it named and shown it myself... I'd always hoped that my rose would be named after me..." In her rant against Kew, she says she'd agreed "that none would be passed on until they had been named, shown and recorded and I'd given my permission." (GST consequently removed Rose d'Hivers from commerce, and unless Kew still has Sharastanek, her jealous guarding of her roses may have resulted in its extinction.)

All this leads me to believe that the names attached to NL 292 'Ispahan,' NL 465 'Sharastanek,' NL 849 'Rose de Rescht,' NL 1001 'Gloire de Guilan,' and NL 1409 'Rose d'Hivers' were tentative working names. Apparently Rose d'Hivers was supposed to be named 'Nancy Lindsay,' so 'Pompon des Princes' may have been what she finally chose for NL 292. Other than 'Sharastanek,' whose etymology escapes me, all of the names first used are descriptive, i.e., named after the city or province where they were found, or from the fact that Rose d'Hivers was dried for use in winter. I suspect that what we now know as Ispahan may not have had that name (or Pompon des Princes) before the 1940s, and while 'Mogul Temple Rose of Persia' points to the country of origin, I'm left wondering what it was called in Farsi or Arabic before Lindsay collected it and stuck her tag on it. Alas that we seem to have no Iranian rosarians here.
Reply #2 of 5 posted 24 JUL 16 by Patricia Routley
Thank you so much Hardy.
It was Nancy, and not her mother, Norah, who bought back the roses.
We actually have that reference under 'Ispahan' centifolia. As the Ispahan' damask also has references to centifolia, I feel that perhaps these two files should be merged. But I would need to do more homework on this and take any advice.....
I actually found the 1967 and 1974 references (in the damask file) of interest. ....and the 1829 one as well.
Reply #3 of 5 posted 25 JUL 16 by Patricia Routley
No advice forthcoming from anyone, so despite the differences of class in the two files, I have moved any reference of a double rose to the damask 'Ispahan' file, leaving references to a single rose in the centifolia 'Ispahan' file. They are probably the same rose, but I am a little cautious.

Probably the reason that Mr. Thomas did not mention Nancy in relation to 'Ispahan', was that for once, she gave it a responsible name and one that it had been known by beforehand (as well as adding her study number N.L. 292).

Taking a shortcut here - Virginia, does the 1877 p84 reference belong in the single 'Ispahan' centifolia file?
Reply #4 of 5 posted 2 days ago by Hamanasu
Hello, Norah Lindsay wrote of the moss rose of Ispahan as early as 1929. In her article ‘Roses of Long Ago’ she describes it very definitely as being mossed (3 times in a single line): ‘... the moss rose, ‘les roses d’Ispahan dans leurs gaines de mousse’. Those furry buds...’
Also, her daughter Nancy appears to have gone to Persia and brought back roses from there between 1935 and 1939. (This is all based on this source:,%20Allyson%20Hayward,%20Rosa%20Mundi,%20Vol.%2023,%20No.%202,%202009%20-%202010_djvu.txt)
Is it not possible, then, that the centifolia Ispahan was an old moss rose known in France (and to Norah), and different from the the damascena Ispahan known to us, which shows no mossing? And assuming Nancy introduced the damascena Ispahan from Persia, it seems unlikely it was she who named it Ispahan, knowing (as she must have done) that her mother’s favourite rose was a muscosa by the name of Ispahan (Norah described it as ‘the most lovable of all roses’).
As to Sharastanek, could this be Quatre Saisons (or Trigintipetala)? The source mentioned above quotes two descriptions by Nancy, one frome her own catalogue and one from a letter she wrote to Vita Sackville-West. The descriptions diverge in the flower colour they give, but the inconsistency disappears if the catalogue refers to the bud (which can approximate red in quatre saisons) and the letter to the fully open flower (which can fade to pale pink). Otherwise the descriptions seem consistent with Quatre Saisons (grey-green leaves, small clusters of double flowers, delicious and intoxicating scent, etc). The main feature that may give Sharastanek away as Quatre Saisons, though, is the description, in the letter to Vita, of the “lovely pointed buds with long ferny sepals”. (Intriguingly, Nancy also reported to Vita that she found the rose in an area now completely deserted, famed to have once been the place where one of Alexander the Great’s generals settled and built his residence, so that the rose might have been introduced by him; which tallies with the idea that Quatre Saisons has been known since Graeco-Roman times). Also, if Sharastanek is Quatre Saisons, it would explain why Sharastanek has, unlike Lindsay’s other introductions, disappeared from commerce as a distinct variety in its own right. Yes, a lot of speculation, but...
Reply #5 of 5 posted 2 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Whatever Ms (Nancy) Lindsay says should be taken with a pinch of salt.
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Initial post 8 days ago by mballen
Is Kathleen really only hardy to 6b? On Helpmefind Buff Beauty is listed as 5b. I wonder if anyone has experience with these in colder climes.
Reply #1 of 6 posted 6 days ago by Palustris
Those hardiness ratings are a general guide. Different cultivation techniques and micro-climates also affect the rose's health. Further, there is a big difference between 'surviving' and 'thriving'. My experience with the hybrid musks, and other roses that are on the edge of their hardiness zones, is that they will live for several years in a cold zone or even longer, but only really thrive and grow to their full potential where the zone is warm enough for this kind of growth. Cold hardiness is only part of the story since the length of the growing season has a large effect too.
Reply #2 of 6 posted 6 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
I grow half a dozen or so hybrid musks and they do perform well in locations with cool wet summers, in fact some varieties like 'Penelope' and 'Cornelia' have some of their biggest sprays of flowers and best colours at the beginning of Autumn in the cooler damper weather.
In 2010 we had -15C at the beginning of the year and -18C at the end of the year and they were not troubled at all.
Reply #3 of 6 posted 5 days ago by Palustris
Yes, -18C corresponds to the USDA zone 7 so we consider that fairly balmy weather here in New England. That roughly corresponds to my own hardiness zone, but just 20 or 30 miles away it is zone 6. I am on a peninsula extending into the sea which keeps us warmer in the fall and cooler in the spring than the mainland. So we can grow hybrid musks very easily in my zone. The issue is how well they grow in zone 5 and 6. Again, my experience is that "it depends." It depends on micro climates, cultivation techniques and luck.
Reply #4 of 6 posted 5 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
I can get frosts in June, August and occasionally July, what zone is that?
Reply #5 of 6 posted 5 days ago by Palustris
You will have to ask the USDA.

BTW: historical weather data for Devon is available at

This historical data shows not even one "frost" in June, July, or August for the period 1910 to 2016; so maybe your implausible asseveration is simply that: an implausible asseveration.
Reply #6 of 6 posted 2 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
I have start off by saying your "so maybe your implausible asseveration is simply that: an implausible asseveration" applying I am lying is rather offensive. As you correctly say in an earlier post, "It depends on micro climates, cultivation techniques and luck".
I live in the bottom of a valley, it is much colder than R.A.F Chivenor (which is nearer the coast), where the MET office records their data. As you walk up West Lane to the village there is a point where you can feel the temperature suddenly rise by 5 degrees. You can literally take two steps back or forward and be in the two different zones. I was only talking about a ground frost on the grass not an air frost, but it was still frozen water, in July! You can tell when there will be a frost in summer. It follows rain earlier in the day that by evening time has cleared up leaving very clear blue skies and a gentle but cold northerly breeze. Even in warm weather there are always heavy dews. Last year there were very bad late frosts and an early spring, my Camellias, Rhododendrons, Salix, Hydrangeas and many roses all had the growths killed. If you stood right at the top of the garden and looked out over Halsdon nature reserve there was a pronounced line where the cold air had settled and the frost had burnt all the new growth from the oak trees. I struggle to grow Buddleias, hydrangeas, mahonias that people up in the village easily grow. If any Australians read this, I am embarrassed by the pathetic specimen of Eucalyptus gunii (it is a particularly hardy selection that the Forestry Commission grow), even with all the extra care and attention I have given to it planting it at the top of a south-west facing side of the garden, in seven years it has only grown as high as 3M.
Also in 2015 at Chivenor was the warmest December night ever recorded in the U.K. when the temperature did not fall below 14.4C.
This year is exceptional there has been almost no rain for a month and temperatures as high as 25C. There was a late winter with snow at the end of March but since then hardly any frosts, the roses have not looked better with only a handful having blackspot. In a bad year almost all of them have it to some degree and many completely defoliated. I could not have chosen a worse place to try and grow roses. However Hybrid Musk roses grow very well.
My cottage,
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Initial post 30 APR 17 by Michael Garhart
I would compare canes, reproductive parts, and prickles. I can tell by one photo of the canes that it is not pure primula. I just could not tell what else beyond primula it is.
Reply #1 of 2 posted 1 MAY 17 by Andrew from Dolton
Before I read the description and had only seen pictures of this rose, it struck me how similar to R. spinosissima it is.
Reply #2 of 2 posted 2 days ago by Tessie
Maybe but I'm not so sure such was possible. As Rosa primula generally blooms much earlier in the year in my garden and has stopped blooming before R. spinosissima starts. I can go back and look to see for the year I collected the hip Gizi's Rose came from what was blooming at the same time as R. primula. I do have multiple other species very close to R. primula that do bloom at the same time, such as R. fedschenkoana (repeats) and R. borissovae (which also repeats). Two of the R. primula seedlings from this one hip also repeat bloom. Both of them are white. The 3 yellow flowering seedlings are once bloomers.

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