HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
Andrew from Dolton
most recent 4 days ago SHOW ALL
Initial post 8 days ago by Margaret Furness
I feel stupid asking this, as Excelsa is wichurana / luciae and Turner's Crimson is multiflora, but would someone who grows both please post comparison photos? Trying to ID a foundling. It has feathery stipules, but so does what I assume to be Hiawatha (luciae) from the same roadside patch.
Reply #1 of 18 posted 8 days ago by Patricia Routley
Quit feeling stupid. You’re LOOKING at a rose and that is smart. It is well known that most multifloras have feathery stipules, but in my garden most wich’s ALSO have this trait. Just take a look at the parentage tree of ‘Excelsa’ and you will see where the feathery stipules come from.
I think basically, a multi has matt leaves and a wich has shiny. Ignore the word luciae - just concentrate on multi and wich. You might also like to read the 2008 reference for ‘Turner’s Crimson Rambler’ which may help you know what sort of bush it is.
Reply #2 of 18 posted 8 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Hello Margaret,
Here are leaves from 'Excelsa' and 'Turner's Crimson'. 'T C' has a more shrub like grow whilst 'E' shoots are quite brambly with its Wichurana blood. 'T C' often has two little leaflets by the stipule facing the opposite way to the other leaves. There is a good picture that Patricia has posted of 'T. C'. 'T. C' leaves are paler and generally not so shiny as 'E'. Both have featery stipules but 'T. C' are particularly bristly.
Regards Andrew.
Reply #3 of 18 posted 8 days ago by Margaret Furness
Thanks Andrew. I have the impression from your photo that Excelsa's leaves are slightly rounded, compared to Turner's Crimson.
Ramblers are survivors here, reflecting their ability to root down (layer themselves). I'm adding a couple of photos of what I think is Excelsa, where it can't have been watered for decades. The first has Excelsa in the foreground, Hiawatha climbing the tree; fortunately both just reach the road verge now, because you don't walk into places like that in summer. The second photo is an old country churchyard, which I like for the horse-trough in the foreground.
Reply #4 of 18 posted 8 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Yes, 'Turner's Crimson' leaves are much more pointed and multiflora like. I found my 'Turner's Crimson' in a derelict mill along with what I believed to be 'Paul Ricault' but it now appears to be 'Paul Perras'. I know you aren't having anymore roses but 'Turner's Crimson' is such a historically important rose, and pretty as well.
Reply #5 of 18 posted 7 days ago by Patricia Routley
I am not sure if this will help - the photo might be too small. I have included some ‘Mlle Cecile Brunner’ buds to help discern the ‘Dorothy Perkins’ pink colour.
Reply #6 of 18 posted 7 days ago by Margaret Furness
Maybe not! It makes Turner's Crimson's leaves look rounded. Thank you anyway.
I'm collecting cuttings of ramblers to try to make sure one nursery has a full house as far as those in SA go. Very few nurseries selling heritage roses are left in Aus now. I need to make sure I get them right.
Reply #7 of 18 posted 7 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Here is a picture of a foundling rose that was later identified as 'Turner's Crimson', it shows the slight puckering of the leaves (Bullate?) quite well.

Ed. The member Palustris has many good pictures of these types of ramblers including 'Excelsa'.
Reply #9 of 18 posted 7 days ago by Palustris
Andrew, that plant can't be 'Turner's Crimson Rambler'. Look at the pedicels: they should be covered with tiny hairs. I can't believe I don't have any good photos of it. Next year I'll take some good photos.
Reply #10 of 18 posted 7 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Oh! That's interesting. I wonder what this rose could be!? The plant I took my cuttings off would have been planted around 70 years ago and is grown in other gardens in the village too.
Reply #11 of 18 posted 7 days ago by Palustris
I'm not certain, but the color looks about right for TCR.
Reply #8 of 18 posted 7 days ago by Palustris
'Excelsa' and 'Turner's Crimson Rambler' are quite distinct once you have had the opportunity to see them both in full flower. TCR has much more maroon flowers than 'Excelsa' whose flowers are red fading to a dull pink. However, the absolutely easiest method it to look at the pedicels. On TCR they are absolutely covered with a profusion of tiny hairs.

This can be easily seen in Patricia's photo:

It can also be seen in the picture from the book: Rosenbuch für Gartenliebhaber by J. Hoffmann, Berlin

Once the plants are out of flower, identifying them may be more difficult.
Reply #12 of 18 posted 6 days ago by Margaret Furness
I think I have (access to) both, flowering at present on roadsides. On the left, near the restored bootmaker's shop from 1904 at Mylor, is what I think is Turner's Crimson Rambler, based on what I'm told about the pedicels. It grows in shade for at least half of the day, and has quite a bit of mildew. Some petals develop an ugly mauve tinge as it fades. On the right is the one about 5km away, at Bradbury, which I think is Excelsa, growing in full sun. The watsonia, and bracken and blackberry in a previous photo, are declared weeds.
Reply #13 of 18 posted 6 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
I doubting whether my 'Excelsa' is correct now as well.
Reply #14 of 18 posted 6 days ago by Palustris
Margaret, please look at my photos of 'Excelsa' that show the pedicels, peduncles, and small stems:

I think that the mildewed rose in your photo could be 'Excelsa'. Notice that the pedicels of TCR are completely covered by the tiny hairs, but on 'Excelsa' they are much fewer and they sparsely populate the pedicels.
Reply #15 of 18 posted 6 days ago by Margaret Furness
It's complicated when both are found roses, and I think Patricia's are too. I should check at a nursery (which is going out of business) has named plants and re-photograph them.
Reply #16 of 18 posted 6 days ago by Patricia Routley
Yes you should. Take the book 'Tea Roses' and photograph an average coloured bloom on page 206.
Reply #17 of 18 posted 5 days ago by Palustris
Well, I'm sorry I haven't taken any good photos of 'Turner's Crimson Rambler' showing the extraordinary pedicels. I know there are a few plants in town all bought from Michael Walsh about 100 years ago. One plant was recently cut to the ground by the homeowner, but I am certain there are layered plants near it that I need to rescue so I can have my own clone.
Reply #18 of 18 posted 4 days ago by Margaret Furness
This is Excelsa as grown at Thomas for Roses nursery (sorry Patricia, I forgot to take the Tea book). Nearer pink than red. Admittedly they have what I think is the same rose as Paul's Scarlet, but it's not that.
most recent 10 days ago HIDE POSTS
Initial post 11 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Hello Patricia,
Do you think the flower colour becomes pinker when the temperature is warmer or cooler?
Regards, Andrew.
Reply #1 of 3 posted 11 days ago by Patricia Routley
I don’t think so Andrew. The overall impression I have is the rose is white, but I have never taken too many photos of it over the years.
Reply #2 of 3 posted 11 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
My plant is very pale pink in bud, rather in the same manner as some white rugosa roses. During cooler weather I thought the colour was a shade deeper.
Reply #3 of 3 posted 10 days ago by Patricia Routley
You have asked “flower colour”, but I presume you are talking of the bud colour. This is a cool season and yes there is a pink tint in the bud, visible in my 2018 photos. I have no idea what the temperature was like in 2008.
most recent 1 DEC SHOW ALL
Initial post 16 MAY by Just-one-more-rose
Would anyone who has roses with different fragrances, care to describe the blue moon fragrance? (e.g. for many other roses I see fruity, citrusy, lemony, tea, damask, sweet, old rose and so forth), but for blue moon, HMF merely says 'strong, opinions vary' - I'd love to hear more detail on the blue moon fragrance, if anyone can. Thank you
Reply #1 of 7 posted 16 MAY by Lavenderlace
I can't wait to hear your answers! I should have some Blue Moon arriving soon and if the fragrance is anything like Twice in a Blue Moon, then I will be thrilled. I find it hard to describe that one though, because it is different from the others to my nose, simply lovely wafting in the vase. Not tea, not damask, not lemon, not old rose to me.
Reply #2 of 7 posted 3 OCT by Plazbo
Curious as well. Trying to find a pale mauve/silver/grey (aka as "blue" as possible) with decent health, available in australia and not being citrusy scented seems a task too hard at the moment.
Reply #3 of 7 posted 3 OCT by Andrew from Dolton
I have grown 'Blue Moon', 'Blue Moon climbing' and 'Twice in a Blue Moon'. 'Blue Moon climbing' gives one good display but it only ever flowered once for me. IMO 'Twice in a Blue Moon' is a better plant than 'Blue Moon', it repeats better and has slightly bigger flowers. To my nose they all have a wonderful strong Damask fragrance but with fresher citrus notes as well, unfortunately they won't grow well in my climate and I have given-up trying to make them happy. For blueness I grow 'Reine des Violettes', 'Bleu Magenta' and 'Baby Faurax'.
I can remember my grandmother growing 'Blue Moon' in the early '70s when it was new on the market and I was small enough to be dwarfed by a Hybrid-Tea. Everyone agreed it had strong perfume but I couldn't understand why the adults were so excited about it being "blue", the emperor's new clothes.
Reply #4 of 7 posted 3 OCT by Plazbo
I agree that calling them blue is stretching it but it's what people call them. 'Twice in a Blue Moon' isn't here in Australia otherwise I'd be looking at it more closely.

I have Baby Faurax it's more purple than I'm looking for. Gra's Blue (also have) has a colour that's along the lines I'm looking at (it just has a strong citrus scent). Was looking at Moon Shadow but not available. It's a lot of citrus or obvious health issues.
Reply #5 of 7 posted 3 OCT by Lavenderlace
In my southern Z8, sandy soil, own-root Blue Moon hasn't compared favorably at all with Twice in a Blue Moon. Not in vigor, fragrance, wafting ability, bloom size, number of blooms, or frequency of blooming. One criticism of "Twice" could be how large the bushes get, requiring several prunings during growing season to keep the size down but the trade-off was seven inch blooms before the excessive heat set in.

Blue Moon has a pleasant fragrance though, and surely it will get stronger as they get older. I'm comparing their performances to each other though at the same age.
Reply #6 of 7 posted 1 DEC by Plazbo
I'd say it's sweet and citrusy...but not in the strong lemony way a lot of mauves/lavendars are.

I think the opinions vary part may be due to the flowers not being consistently fragrant. While my plant is new, it's had a few spikes, some flowers have been more fragrant than others.
Reply #7 of 7 posted 1 DEC by Andrew from Dolton
It reminds me of that slightly grapefruity smell that Magnolia grandiflora has.
most recent 28 NOV HIDE POSTS
Initial post 28 NOV by Andrew from Dolton
Very nice blue tints in the petals. This is what I expected when I bought 'Mr Bluebird' three years ago. Instead mine flowers much paler and closer to the pink of 'Old Blush'. I'll try and buy another from a different supplier and discard the one I'm growing now.
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