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Andrew from Dolton
most recent today SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 20 FEB 14 by Michael Garhart
I wish there were articles or documentation about how the Southern European countries began striped roses. It is obvious that they began before roses like Scentimental hit the market, so it makes me wonder if there is a story to tell.
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Reply #1 of 9 posted 2 APR by mtspace
Ferdinand Pichard has bee around for a long time. It lurks in the ancestry of Oranges 'n' Lemons as it does in the ancestry of Scentimental.
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Reply #2 of 9 posted 2 APR by Andrew from Dolton
Do you think they could ultimately all descend from Rosa gallica 'Versicolor'? Are there any striped roses without any gallica blood in them at all?
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Reply #3 of 9 posted 3 APR by Lyn G
Andrew ...

You may be interested in this article written by Ralph Moore:

http://www.paulbardenroses.com/moorestripe.html
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Reply #4 of 9 posted 3 APR by Michael Garhart
Yes, some teas are striped.

FP is related to other H.Perpetuals. They share an odd type of feathery, pointed foliage, which is kind of interesting.

I am not completely convinced virus is the only source. Maybe it's just a simple mutation. I think most of my frustration is that there is no lineage bridges from of the original modern roses (gallics, for example) to the early 1900s.
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Reply #5 of 9 posted 3 APR by Andrew from Dolton
Thank you Lyn that was really informative.
Michael are the stripy Teas pure Teas? The foliage of 'Ferdinand Pichard' is also a pale colour too similar to certain others. The gaps in the family trees are as annoying as with "blue" roses too.
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Reply #6 of 9 posted yesterday by Michael Garhart
It's not possible to know. Many lines ends in information between 1800 and 1850.

I am guessing that striping is a form of incomplete inheritance in some lines of roses. I am also guessing that bicolors further disambiguate the incompletion.
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Reply #7 of 9 posted yesterday by Robert Neil Rippetoe
Ralph Moore introduced modern striped genetics via, 'Ferdinard Pichard'.

I was around and knew him at the time. All modern striped roses descend from his work.

They created quite a stir and they still do.
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Reply #8 of 9 posted yesterday by Andrew from Dolton
I REALLY like 'Stars 'n' Stripes' and would just love to know the parentage of 'Ferdinand Pichard'.
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Reply #9 of 9 posted today by Michael Garhart
That line is from:

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=1.61456

They have foliage unlike most HPs of the time, with slight serration and more linear leaflets. Sometimes with undulating disfigurement to the whole leaflet.

Vebert spanned 50some years, it spans many types of roses, and a lot of the work doesn't have a lineage. He used a lot of moss and centifolia, which makes me wonder if a mutation from those was not the source. Specifically centifolia x gallica backgrounds, which are prone to mutations of all sorts. Including color breaking. It is perhaps he found a mutation that was not genetically superficial and kept the stripe from it, which happened to be a simple single.
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most recent 31 JAN SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 13 JAN 06 by Cass's Garden With Roses
The spring flush is wonderful. Blueberry Hill has rust every summer and anthracnose. The budded plant has rose mosaic virus, appalling in a newly released patented rose. Mauve roses rarely fail to disappoint.
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Reply #1 of 4 posted 29 JAN by drossb1986
Mauve and purple roses are almost always guaranteed to disappoint. I've yet to meet one that didn't leave me disappointed.
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Reply #2 of 4 posted 30 JAN by Jay-Jay
Try a mossed rose like William Lobb. Never disappoints one. Or Erinnerung an Brod... Maybe Veilchenblau.
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Reply #3 of 4 posted 30 JAN by Margaret Furness
Rhapsody in Blue does well in my garden, and Blue for You in my sister's garden (both zone 9b). But I'm gradually moving to the view that the colour of RIB is a bit harsh among my heritage roses.
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Reply #4 of 4 posted 31 JAN by Andrew from Dolton
I would definitely have to second what Jay-Jay says adding 'Bleu Magenta', 'Zigeunerknabe' and 'Baby Faurax' to the list. These roses in my garden have some of the bluest tints I have yet to see in a rose flower.
In my experience roses like 'Blue for You' or 'Blue Moon' make lovely cut flower but the colour can be hard to place in the garden without the bush sticking out like a sore thumb.
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most recent 28 JAN SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 8 SEP by Nastarana
Which of the 'Westerland' sport family has the best color?

Which has color which is clear, not dull, and doesn't turn pinkish?

I have read that 'Westerland' is excellent for cold climates, repeats and is fragrant, but I have never cared for the color.
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Reply #1 of 13 posted 10 SEP by Jay-Jay
Maybe more fun in sowing Your own Westerland seedlings (most of the outcome is splendid) than buy a sport?
In my humble opinion, some of my seedlings are way better than the mother/hip-parent Westerland.
Better scented, longer lasting, nicer foliage an better growing habit/better suited as a climber.
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Reply #2 of 13 posted 10 SEP by Andrew from Dolton
The plant Jay-Jay gave me is a most satisfactory pink/orange/red colour and very healthy too.
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Reply #3 of 13 posted 10 SEP by Jay-Jay
Please take a look at my this years' seedlings in my journal and my earlier seedlings of Westerland at my breeder page.
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Reply #4 of 13 posted 10 SEP by Nastarana
Your seedlings look splendid. For me to grow some I would have to buy a 'Westerland', which I don't really want to do.
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Reply #5 of 13 posted 10 SEP by Jay-Jay
This-one might come to The States with Becky and John Hook from Roseraie du Désert: https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.69439.2
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Reply #9 of 13 posted 13 SEP by Nastarana
I love your 'Noortje'. Now, that shows good color and good shape as well, IMO.

I don't think the Hooks have made it to the US yet.
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Reply #10 of 13 posted 14 SEP by Jay-Jay
And I'll have to send them another Noortje.
Thank You for Your kind compliment
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Reply #6 of 13 posted 10 SEP by Jay-Jay
Or just ask someone in the USA, that grows this rose, if they would be so kind to send You some (OP) hips.
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Reply #7 of 13 posted 10 SEP by Andrew from Dolton
Are seeds restricted by importing laws?
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Reply #8 of 13 posted 11 SEP by Jay-Jay
In the USA yes!
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Reply #11 of 13 posted 20 JAN by Michael Garhart
Autumn Sunset was by far my favorite. I used to have one trained for years.
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Reply #12 of 13 posted 23 JAN by mark50
Hi All,,,Do any of you know where I could get a couple of Lemon Meringue Roses? I've called nurseries and garden centers all over the US with no luck. Bare root, potted or cuttings, doesnt matter to me. I had one for years and it was the best rose Ive ever grown. I am in Atlanta. It took the heat and humidity like a charm. But I lost it one spring and cannot find it again in the US. Of the 50+ roses I grow this one was the best in every way, Hopfully I can find a Westerland and an Autumn Sunset soon....If I have those maybe I'll get the same growth and habit as in lemon meringue and who knows, maybe a sport of Lemon Meringue from the Autumn Sunset will form!! My Lemon Meringue grew sports of the westerland several times. Thanks
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Reply #13 of 13 posted 28 JAN by Michael Garhart
Hortico has it. A gamble, but they have it.
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most recent 21 JAN SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 27 NOV 17 by Andrew from Dolton
This is as well coloured as my 'Penelope's hips ever get.
I'm not able to upload a picture at present.
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Reply #1 of 8 posted 27 NOV 17 by Jay-Jay
From an earlier discussion about so-called Hybrid Musks:

Reply #11 of 24 posted 5 days ago by [HMF supporting member] Andrew from Dolton
Thank you for that Jay-Jay.
'Penelope' is one of my favourite roses, the bud clusters as the first blooms are just opening look quite moschata like. Apparently it is the only rose with pink hips, but I have never seen photographic evidence of this. Mine only ever manage a dullish orange.

Reply #10 of 24 posted 5 days ago by [HMF supporting member] Jay-Jay
When You look at Penelope, way back in the parentage tree, behind Desprez, You can actually find Rosa moschata Herrm. But what the unknown parentage is of the other used roses and/or seedlings???
There is a most interesting book about hybrid Musks written by Anne Velle with a Geneology tree of Hybrid- Moschata in it: ISBN: 978 90 209 9623 4
Maybe Anne Velle might be able/willing/so kind to upload that page... or the interested might buy this book!

Reply #11 of 24 posted 5 days ago by [HMF supporting member] Andrew from Dolton
Thank you for that Jay-Jay.
'Penelope' is one of my favourite roses, the bud clusters as the first blooms are just opening look quite moschata like. Apparently it is the only rose with pink hips, but I have never seen photographic evidence of this. Mine only ever manage a dullish orange.

Reply #13 of 24 posted 5 days ago by [HMF supporting member] Jay-Jay
Orange hips You mean and pink flower-buds?

Reply #14 of 24 posted 5 days ago by [HMF supporting member] Andrew from Dolton
Graham Stuart Thomas says that 'Penenope' has pink hips.

Reply #15 of 24 posted 5 days ago by [HMF supporting member] Jay-Jay
A slip of the tongue?

Reply #16 of 24 posted 5 days ago by [HMF supporting member] Andrew from Dolton
Thomas wrote hips as heps, because of the reference to that part of a females' anatomy. He used the archaic English spelling shew/shews instead of show/shows.

Reply #17 of 24 posted 5 days ago by [HMF supporting member] Jay-Jay
No confusion over here, we call them "bottels" (not Bottles). But some hips look like bottles or are urn-shaped.
Never thought of that female anatomy in combination with the rose-fruit ;-)
And is the color rose/rosé (roze in Dutch) not in fact pink? Rose-hips wrongly transformed in pink hips?

Reply #21 of 24 posted today by [HMF supporting member] Jay-Jay
Is any rose known to develop pink hips?
I never saw any and never heard of that.
Heard of, or seen these colors: Red, orange, yellow, green, all in different shades... and black hips.
Brown and gray hips too, but they were rotten or mouldy.

Reply #22 of 24 posted today by [HMF supporting member] Andrew from Dolton
In Graham Stuart Thomas Shrub Roses of Today, 1974 revised edition p.162-3:

'Penelope'.
...By late November the heps develop their soft colouring, it is a delightful diversion from the usual red, glossy berries of most shrubs to find these heps are dull and bloom-covered, and change from cool green to coral pink slowly. The warmer the autumn the more highly coloured they become, and last for many weeks. I know of no other shrubs with berries approaching this colour. (Plate III, heps only.).

There is even a coloured plate which I think was painted by Thomas himself, 'Penelope' on the centre left.

Reply #23 of 24 posted today by [HMF supporting member] Jay-Jay
Thank You,
That's indeed pearl pink. Would be nice in fall/winter.
Never seen before. The description on HMF states orange hips.
Maybe a member has some hip-photo's (no röntgen images) and can upload them.
Or make some, for on the Northern Hemisphere it is the time for rose-hips.
Maybe a part of this discussion might be transplanted to the Penelope page?

Reply #24 of 24 posted today by [HMF supporting member] Andrew from Dolton
Jay-Jay, I'll reply to you in the comments for 'Penelope'.
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Reply #2 of 8 posted 27 NOV 17 by Jay-Jay
Can You upload that picture, You uploaded at Dinky, and/or post that-one at photo's for Penelope.
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Reply #3 of 8 posted 27 NOV 17 by Andrew from Dolton
Sure.
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Reply #4 of 8 posted 21 JAN by Andrew from Dolton
Well here are some hips from the first flush of flowers at the end of May. It was a long hot dry summer here and I cut the hips off to photograph them, I don't think they will ripen anymore now. They are a terracotta colour with a tiny hint of pink, no way close to the coral pink of Thomas' painting.
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Reply #5 of 8 posted 21 JAN by Marlorena
I wonder if your soil ph plays a part?... here in East Anglia when I had 'Penelope' I got that blush pink colour on the hips.... I thought they were very lovely and confirmed what Thomas said.. that's why I grew it... but I got disappointed with its rebloom, so didn't keep it..
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Reply #6 of 8 posted 21 JAN by Andrew from Dolton
The soil at Briar Cottage or Sunningdale Nursery would have been acid sand. My soil is stony loam and acid too but not such a low PH as Surrey. My plant and another at a garden I tend in the village repeat flower well three time a year very well especially in Sept/Oct. I notice from the painting too that the hips are a different shape as well without any hint of a calyx.
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Reply #7 of 8 posted 21 JAN by Jay-Jay
It might be the wax on the hips, that might be pictured. Your hips just have almost no wax. Apples can look pink due by wax on the peel, but when rubbed purple or red.
This photo shows more wax... ergo more pinkish: http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.137226
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Reply #8 of 8 posted 21 JAN by Andrew from Dolton
True, they do have a slight bloom on them now largely washed off by the rain. I have been watching them like a hawk and at no point during the ripening process have they been any colour but green, then pale orange, then orange.
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