HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
Andrew from Dolton
most recent 7 days ago HIDE POSTS
Initial post 7 days ago by happymaryellen
I live in Northern California and I absolutely love this rose. One of the things I’ve noticed is that the canes can get up to 7 feet tall. But when the canes get tall it doesn’t seem to flower much. So my question to those of you who have the same dilemma, is when you are deadheading the rose do you cut it way back? Is it better to keep it at like 4 feet and then get more blooms? Just curious. Thank you for your responses in advance.
Reply #1 of 2 posted 7 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
I would peg down the whole long shoot.
Reply #2 of 2 posted 7 days ago by Margaret Furness
I don't grow this rose, but I would suggest espaliering the long shoot. Pegging down works in climates where the grass and weeds stop growing over winter. In warmer climates, weeding among a pegged-down rose can be a nightmare.
most recent 7 days ago SHOW ALL
Initial post 6 JUL 17 by DLEverette_NC_Zone7b
My GJ is being very stingy. Last year (first full season) I tried to grow it as a shrub rose and it didn't produce a flush but once. This year, I decided to let it grow as a climber so I could bend the canes to get more blooms. It did the same thing as last year - It bloomed once in March and just grows and grows without producing more blooms.

I don't know what I'm doing wrong here. It's a fantastic rose when it's in bloom, but it's not repeating very well at all for me. Any idea what might be wrong?
Reply #1 of 7 posted 6 JUL 17 by Andrew from Dolton
This rose never did well for me. However, last autumn I gave it a dressing of lime as my soil is rather acidic. I also gave it the absolute minimum of pruning. This year it is flowering better although because of the cool summers in my location it never grows more than 1 metre high, it is on laxa rootstock not 'Dr Huey'.
Reply #2 of 7 posted 6 JUL 17 by StrawChicago Alkaline clay 5a
Everett: I look over your pictures of roses in pots ... I see pale upper leaves, that's typical of ALKALINE tap water, like my hard-well water at pH 9. For that reason I use vinegar & ACIDIC sulfate of potash & gypsum to fix my alkaline-tap-water and to force Austin roses to repeat fast. See my HMF profile on fixing one's alkaline-tap-water.

Folks in rich-minerals clay-region report Gertrude Jekyll repeats well, if pruned & given enough fertilizer.

Andrew is right about liming if the soil is acidic. Calcium is the building blocks for leaves, stems, roots, and petals. If there's tons of acidic rain (pH 5.6 on the west coast, and near 4 in the East coast) ... that also leach out minerals necessary for blooming. Like my own-root Munstead Wood in a pot refused to bloom with low-nutrients-LOAMY potting soil & tons of acidic rain. But when I put Munstead Wood in my alkaline clay (rich in minerals), it's pumping out 20+ buds right now 7/6/17 for 2nd-flush. To make stingy Austin roses to repeat bloom, a high-dose fertilizer NPK 8-20-40, plus lime (for acidic soil), or gypsum (for alkaline soil). High potassium force roses to bloom. High phosphorus forces more branching, rather than one-cane wonder. Low nitrogen helps to cut down the tall octopus canes (if grafted on Dr.Huey). Credit & many thanks to Perpetua in Romania who shared with me NPK 8-20-40 as the secret to tons of blooms.
Reply #3 of 7 posted 7 JUL 17 by DLEverette_NC_Zone7b
Thank you for the tips! I think you might be right about the soil acidity. I suspect the cause is the run off water from the roof. This year, I've noticed is that all my plants that get a high dosage of run-off rainwater from the roof aren't very happy at all. I lost a baby own root plant earlier this year and almost lost two others. I had a Lady of Shallot in the same spot as the GJ in the picture you saw from last year, and it was having the same symptoms as well. It's not as not growing or blooming much at all either (which is unusual for LoS). I moved it and watered it well and within a week, it started growing again like crazy.

Since I can't move my GJ away from the wall (apartment manager will throw a fit), I'd like to try a fertilizer like the one you suggested. Do you have any suggestions on a brand with that ratio that I can use for potted roses? Will the high numbers burn the roots?

FYI, my local nursery sells Jack's Classic bloom booster (10-30-20). Would that be a good place to start?

Thanks again for your help!
Reply #4 of 7 posted 7 JUL 17 by Andrew from Dolton
Your rose is growing in a container, don't forget that most roses, like Clematis, like to have their roots cool and moist.
Reply #5 of 7 posted 7 JUL 17 by StrawChicago Alkaline clay 5a
Everett: Just saw the pic. of your bush, looks good. I can tell the pH is acidic, from the smaller & spindly & thin canes. At slightly alkaline pH, there's more calcium & potassium & phosphorus for blooming. Just google "plant nutrients chart and pH level" and you'll see.

G.J. at Chicago Botanical Garden is pruned quite short (below my waist) but with more blooms than leaves. CBG has alkaline loamy soil (pH 7.4), and they recommend soluble fertilizer NPK 20-20-20 three times a year.

To force GJ to re-bloom: Any fertilizer LOW in nitrogen would do. Chemical nitrogen has acidifying action .. which makes the pH even lower with acidic rain. Dolomitic lime (calcium & magnesium, pH near 10) is expensive, a cheaper sub. is a 40 lbs. bag of pea-gravel (different colors) sold for $3 at local stores. Alkaline pea-gravel provide solid-minerals to neutralize acidic rain. In that assortment of colorful pea-gravel, the red/pink ones provide iron, the beige ones provide calcium, the gray ones provide magnesium .. but stay away from black-pea-gravel (high aluminum). Aluminum is toxic to roots.

The pea-gravel will neutralize acidic rain, plus provide solid minerals for blooming. Pea-gravel don't shoot up the pH like garden lime, it's a constant steady-release. If you have loamy/sandy soil, there's plenty of phosphorus, just need to aim for neutral pH (7) for phosphorus to be released. However, acidic rain does leach out calcium, potassium, and magnesium (in that order). Pea-gravel can add calcium & magnesium, but one still need potassium, either potassium chloride (very salty, but no acid), or potassium sulfate (sulfate of potash, 1/3 the salt, but with 21% sulfur). Only Amazon or Kelp4Less sell sulfate of potash, I like the sulfate of potash from Kelp4less better, it dissolves easily if sprinkle on the ground. Kelp4Less is free shipping. Years ago I posted a picture in HMF of Frederic Mistral going from 5 blooms per year to 40+ blooms in one flush, via sulfate of potash.

Potassium needs calcium and magnesium for best blooming. In hydroponic studies, the best ratio is 4:2:1:1, 4 part potassium, 2 part calcium, 1 part magnesium, and 1 part phosphorus. Rose tissue analysis done by University of CA at Davis showed similar ratio: twice more potassium than calcium, and much less magnesium and phosphorus. So either dolomitic lime (calcium & magnesium) or pea-gravel will help to activate sulfate of potash.

Also some Tomato-Tone (higher in potassium than Rose-Tone) will provide bacteria & mycorrhyzal fungi to help with phosphorus uptake. Espoma-Tomato tone is higher in calcium, sold for $10 for a HUGE bag at all stores (Walmart, HomeDepot, Lowe's). That has slow-released organic nitrogen, and doesn't lower pH like chemical nitrogen.
Reply #6 of 7 posted 19 JUL 17 by DLEverette_NC_Zone7b really know a lot! Thank you for taking the time to write that! I think the first thing I will do is test the soil, then use a low nitrogen fertilizer if needed. I'm gonna look into the pea gravel/kelp4less combo too.

As far as Tomato Tone goes, should I use the same amount as I would with Rose Tone?
Reply #7 of 7 posted 7 days ago by happymaryellen
Where would one find 8/20/40 fertilizer?
most recent 29 OCT SHOW ALL
Initial post 20 FEB 14 by Michael Garhart
I wish there were articles or documentation about how the Southern European countries began striped roses. It is obvious that they began before roses like Scentimental hit the market, so it makes me wonder if there is a story to tell.
Reply #1 of 12 posted 2 APR 18 by mtspace
Ferdinand Pichard has bee around for a long time. It lurks in the ancestry of Oranges 'n' Lemons as it does in the ancestry of Scentimental.
Reply #2 of 12 posted 2 APR 18 by Andrew from Dolton
Do you think they could ultimately all descend from Rosa gallica 'Versicolor'? Are there any striped roses without any gallica blood in them at all?
Reply #3 of 12 posted 3 APR 18 by Lyn G
Andrew ...

You may be interested in this article written by Ralph Moore:
Reply #4 of 12 posted 3 APR 18 by Michael Garhart
Yes, some teas are striped.

FP is related to other H.Perpetuals. They share an odd type of feathery, pointed foliage, which is kind of interesting.

I am not completely convinced virus is the only source. Maybe it's just a simple mutation. I think most of my frustration is that there is no lineage bridges from of the original modern roses (gallics, for example) to the early 1900s.
Reply #5 of 12 posted 3 APR 18 by Andrew from Dolton
Thank you Lyn that was really informative.
Michael are the stripy Teas pure Teas? The foliage of 'Ferdinand Pichard' is also a pale colour too similar to certain others. The gaps in the family trees are as annoying as with "blue" roses too.
Reply #6 of 12 posted 20 FEB by Michael Garhart
It's not possible to know. Many lines ends in information between 1800 and 1850.

I am guessing that striping is a form of incomplete inheritance in some lines of roses. I am also guessing that bicolors further disambiguate the incompletion.
Reply #7 of 12 posted 20 FEB by Robert Neil Rippetoe
Ralph Moore introduced modern striped genetics via, 'Ferdinard Pichard'.

I was around and knew him at the time. All modern striped roses descend from his work.

They created quite a stir and they still do.
Reply #8 of 12 posted 20 FEB by Andrew from Dolton
I REALLY like 'Stars 'n' Stripes' and would just love to know the parentage of 'Ferdinand Pichard'.
Reply #9 of 12 posted 21 FEB by Michael Garhart
That line is from:

They have foliage unlike most HPs of the time, with slight serration and more linear leaflets. Sometimes with undulating disfigurement to the whole leaflet.

Vebert spanned 50some years, it spans many types of roses, and a lot of the work doesn't have a lineage. He used a lot of moss and centifolia, which makes me wonder if a mutation from those was not the source. Specifically centifolia x gallica backgrounds, which are prone to mutations of all sorts. Including color breaking. It is perhaps he found a mutation that was not genetically superficial and kept the stripe from it, which happened to be a simple single.
Reply #10 of 12 posted 28 OCT by Rupert, Kim L.
Mr. Moore chose Ferdinand Pichard precisely because it was the only striped rose he could find for which there was no stated parentage, and wasn't a sport. Therefore, it held the greatest opportunity for him to mine stripes from it. It took a long time, but he did it and, as Robert stated, modern stripes all come from those original Little Darling X Ferdinand Pichard seedlings.
Reply #11 of 12 posted 29 OCT by Michael Garhart
I originally made this thread because I had wondered what the exact source of stripes that landed in Europe was. For example, in New Zealand, McGredy began with Stars n Stripes. It took him quite some time to breed the lankiness out of them, although his most popular from that venture, Oranges and Lemons, still suffered from lankiness. Essentially, I had wondered which derivative ignited the same in Europe, and which company landed the derivative first. It does seem Delbard had among the earliest access of those in Europe. I recall they even had a striped russet.
Reply #12 of 12 posted 29 OCT by Rupert, Kim L.
Mr. Moore loved telling the story that McGredy asked him for Pinstripe, his best stripe to that point as it is a bushy, dwarf plant without the ranginess of the earlier types, but Mr. Moore wasn't finished exploring it. He did give McGredy Stars'n Stripes and suggested he raise selfs from it to fix the dwarf, bushy plant habit. McGredy obviously didn't take his advice for some time as every stripe he raised from it ran rangy.
most recent 12 OCT SHOW ALL
Initial post 3 OCT by NaturalBloom

I have a beautiful old Rose bush I "inherited", but do not know the name of the rose.
The loose muddled, large blooms (In the vase) are peachy in colour with a strong fragrance.
The Plant is about 1m Hight 30cm across with straight upright stems. Sparse large thorns.
Repeat Blooms spring until autumn (UK)

Any leads on a name would be grateful.

Many Thanks

Reply #1 of 13 posted 3 OCT by jedmar
This seems to be a Bouquet, the foliage is not from the rose. Do you have a photo of the plant?
Reply #2 of 13 posted 3 OCT by NaturalBloom
Hi, Yes there were some other leaves in the vase. I will have to photograph the bush.a couple of the bright green leaves are visible in the middle.
Reply #3 of 13 posted 4 OCT by Nastarana
It looks like it could be a tea rose. Is Bath warm enough for teas to grow. Does the rose perhaps grow in a pocket where it would stay warm, such as in front of a south facing wall?
Reply #4 of 13 posted 4 OCT by NaturalBloom
Hi Nastarana,

Bath is in the South of the UK so Temperate. It is in a full sun location but is exposed and would have frost in the winter.
I was thinking it a Centifolia or Damask rose?
Reply #5 of 13 posted 4 OCT by Marlorena's all rather vague... are these blooms recent? how big is the bush, height and width? it is thorny? how well does it repeat bloom?... and any idea when it was planted originally.... this is all information that's needed really... as well as photos of the foliage and growth habit... it could just as easily be an Austin rose...
Reply #7 of 13 posted 5 OCT by NaturalBloom
Further details added.
Reply #9 of 13 posted 6 OCT by Marlorena
..thank you for the extra photos... it's a pity we cannot see any blooms on the bush itself, but the foliage to me says modern, very modern look about it.. also the fact it repeats into autumn... it's rare to find a Tea rose growing here... we don't grow those much, and few are available... it's usually Austins but in this case I would guess at 'Joie de Vivre' a Kordes rose... some photos of it look like yours, and some don't...
Reply #10 of 13 posted 7 OCT by NaturalBloom
Thank-you Malorena,

I think that’s a good possibility, I thought my bloom was
more “loose” but as you say it appears to take on a lot
of different forms - almost every picture. One thing I did notice
Is the bud started like a hybrid tea then opened to look more like
an old rose which this appears to do!

I’m afraid the picture in the vase was taken back in the summer, since then I’ve had
to move the bush, so at the moment no blooms,
the leaves here look very fresh and shiny as it’s
new growth from re plant.

I think I will have to wait until next year now to get a good image of
the blooms and bush habit together.

Many thanks for this suggestion I’ll look out to see if all fits later on.

Reply #11 of 13 posted 7 OCT by Marlorena
ok... best of luck... it's a nice rose...
Reply #13 of 13 posted 12 OCT by Edhelka
The blooms look like Joie de Vivre but the leaves and growth habit don't. Also, Joie de Vivre has only mild fragrance.
Reply #12 of 13 posted 9 OCT by NaturalBloom
......I may have found another strong contender Donatella, Meilland 2009.
Reply #8 of 13 posted 6 OCT by Plazbo
Typically centifolia and damask wouldn't have a peachy colour. The yellow pigments usually come via china/tea's or foetida.

The foliage also is not right for either as centifolia and damask are typically more matte/fuzzy than glossy.

I'd be looking at tea's or more modern
Reply #6 of 13 posted 5 OCT by Andrew from Dolton
Bath would be warm enough to grow some of the tougher Tea roses.
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