HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
ProfilePlants  BredPhotosComments 
Gartvis / Anhorn von Hartwiss, Nikolaj Andreevič (Nikolaus)
Discussion id : 63-119
most recent 19 MAY SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 31 MAR 12 by Eric Timewell
This breeder is already famous as a botanist and plant explorer under the name Nicolai Anders von Hartwiss (1791?1793?–1860). He has a cordia, juniper, oak and paeony each named hartwissiana after him. Plants found by him take the identifier (Hartwiss) after the binomial Latin name, e.g. Acer colchicum Hartwiss.
He was educated in Livonia and came from the Germanized Livonian nobility. But since by his time Livonia had been absorbed into the Russian empire, and his exploration and plant breeding were carried out in what was then the Russian empire, he is listed as a Russian explorer and botanist, not a German or Ukrainian one. The Wikipedia entry http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolai_Anders_von_Hartwiss gives the essential references.
It might be a good idea to link the Help Me Find database to other forms of knowledge in this case and use his botanist's name. This would not reduce the value of the christening names provided by Warwaree elsewhere. His aristocratic Russian clientele wrote and spoke French, so his correspondence and names for his new rose varieties are in French too. For that reason most names on the current Plants Bred list are misleading.
REPLY
Reply #1 of 13 posted 4 APR 12 by jedmar
We have used the Russian names first in listing the roses bred by Hartwis, but the French synonyms are also listed. You can see these if you use the List Options / incl. synonyms buttons on the Plants Bred listing.
REPLY
Reply #2 of 13 posted 4 APR 12 by Eric Timewell
Yes, jedmar, I noticed that French synonyms for rose names are listed (as second options). The issue is with the breeder's own name. He never called himself "Gartvis" so there is no justification for our doing so either. He called himself "von Hartwiss" both in Livonia and in the Crimea. The administrative language of the Russian Empire was French (we have 300 pages written to his boss, all in French), so he could continue using the same roman letters we use. Nowadays Russians and Ukrainians use Cyrillic letters so they have to transliterate German "von Hartwiss" into Cyrillic. When you transliterate next into English you get "Gartvis".
That is what Warwaree was trying to get across when he posted on 6 February. We have no need to transliterate in the first place.
It is all right to drop the "von" for famous people. Goethe, Hindenburg, the Hapsburgs and so on do without, and botanists just acknowledge von Hartwiss's numerous discoveries by writing "Hartwiss". They don't write "Gartvis" though as far as I can see.
REPLY
Reply #3 of 13 posted 4 APR 12 by Aurelija D.
The issue is that Russian language does not have a letter H equivalent in their alphabet, therefore, if a name containing H is transcribed into Russian it becomes Г (G). It is a secondary translation issue, when Russians translate Hartwiss into Russian and it becomes Гартвис, and then you translate not from the original, but from the Russian source, which yields you unrecognizable version Gartvis. The issue is also more complex in that, that in Russian language (and in much other Eastern European languages which have grammatical cases) the names are adapted for more fluent use, and rather are written how they are pronounced, but not how they are written in the original form. To give a more contemporary example, George Clooney in Russian would be Джордж Клуни, so if you transcribe from Russian source, it would become Gorge Kluni, or something like that.
REPLY
Reply #4 of 13 posted 4 APR 12 by Eric Timewell
Exactly, Aurelija. Then we add that Hartwiss didn't write in Russian. He probably wrote German in Livonia and certainly wrote French in the Crimea. Of course people writing in Russian should call him Гартвис and people writing in west European languages should call him Hartwiss. Calling him Gartvis is a mistake in any language except Googlespeak.
REPLY
Reply #5 of 13 posted 5 APR 12 by Aurelija D.
Yes, I quite agree, it is a common issue with the naming in references, which version to use. Normally though in English, and in most other Western European languages the birth name in Latin alphabet is used - with, or without umlauts and similar extra letters. Only if there is no known Latin version, interpreters use phonetic transcription, which tends to create a bunch of very similar sounding names in different sources (like lets say Alionushka, Alyonushka, Aljonushka and so on).

Either way in this case a person Gartvis does not exist, it is either Hartwiss or Гартвис.
REPLY
Reply #6 of 13 posted 5 APR 12 by Eric Timewell
Aurelija, what do you make of "Anhorn"? Is it like "Ritter" in "Ritter von Hartwiss", forming a title? Or is it just another given name like Johann in "Johann von Hartwiss"? I can't find "Anhorn" in any dictionary.
REPLY
Reply #7 of 13 posted 5 APR 12 by Aurelija D.
Well he was coming from a family of Swis/Polish nobility, although him being a 10th child in the family, it is unlikely that he inherited any title. It seems that Ангорн фон Гартвис (Anhorn von Hartwiss) is a full family name, which normally was shortened to von Hartwiss - a rather common practice with the nobility names (with the full version used only for official occasions). I am not that familiar with old German, but I think Anhorn could mean something hill/mountain related, so Anhorn von Hartwiss probably would be something like "Anhorns from Hartwiss", to indicate a family Anhorn branch living in Hartwiss. I do not know his genealogy though, so it is a generic guess, there were a few articles/book published about him in Russian, so that might shed some more light on his personal life and family connections.
REPLY
Reply #8 of 13 posted 5 APR 12 by Eric Timewell
Oh, I see. You give a very enlightening "generic" explanation. Thank you.
REPLY
Reply #10 of 13 posted 6 APR 12 by jedmar
One ancestor was Bartholomäus Anhorn (1566-1640), Swiss protestant theologian, pastor and historian. His son Daniel Anhorn, also protestant pastor, had to flee 1621 from his hometown Fläsch, canton Graubünden to Zürich. (this was probably due to the "Bündner Wirren", the wars 1618-1639 in Graubünden between the French/Venetian coalition against the Spanish/Austrians - the latter invaded the region in 1620/21). Daniel Anhorn was apparently the first to write his name as "Anhorn von Hartwiss". His father Bartholomäus wrote a history of these wars called "Graw-Pünter Krieg 1603-1629".

Daniel's son Bartholomäus Anhorn von Hartwiss (January 16, 1616 Fläsch -July 7, 1700 Zürich) was also a protestant pastor and famous for his publications (Magiologia) against witches and witchcraft.

Nikolaus Ernst Bartholomäus Anhorn von Hartwiss was the son of Erich Heinrich Anhorn von Hartwiss (ca. 1750 - April 5, 1833 Kokenhof), and grandson of Sylvester Samuel Anhorn von Hartwiss (July 14, 1708 St. Gallen/Switzerland - ?) , of the Russian army (captain in Derbent (1733), brigadier of the Livonian Division (1755)). Sylvester's father was called Bartholomäus (a son of the witch pastor? he had 13 children!)

Bartholomäus' grandson Sebastian Anhorn von Hartwiss (December 2, 1709 Maienfeld - 1782 Kokenhof) seems also to have moved to Livonia (Livland) in the Baltics. He married Catherine Elisabeth, Baronesse Pott von Luberas. He was brigadier of the Livonian Division (1755), chief commander of Riga (1765) and Vice-governor of Livonia (1776). I am guessing that Sebastian and Sylvester were brothers or cousins who both enrolled in the Russian army.

See also the peony 'Paeonia wittmanniana Hartwiss ex Lindl.
REPLY
Reply #13 of 13 posted 19 MAY by Danhorn
Hi.
I think I'm related to this Anhorn. I've sent you a private message.
REPLY
Reply #9 of 13 posted 6 APR 12 by jedmar
Well, not quite. As aurelija writes, Russian say G instead of H in foreign words, e.g. You eat a Gamburger, fly with Luftgansa, etc. So, I am pretty certain they called him Gartvis. The english text of the website of the Nikita Botanical Gardens calls him Gartvis. We have both Anhorn von Hartwiss and Gartvis in the listing, so as to enable searchers using either name achieve a result.
REPLY
Reply #11 of 13 posted 6 APR 12 by Eric Timewell
Jedmar, it's great to have the ancestral details, confirming Aurelija's generic speculations. They were the Hartwiss Anhorns, not the Zürich Anhorns. Less great to hear how Russians say Hartwiss. The French-speaking Russian elite of his era presumably pronounced it 'Artwiss and some no doubt mistakenly spelt it that way. But it doesn't follow he should have a data entry under Artwiss. Likewise …
At least one Georgian rose researcher is too astute to write Gartvis. Arbartskaya, writing in Russian (http://kajuta.net/node/2624) puts the captions like this:
‘Belle de Nikita’ (HBe, Hartwiss, 1833).
That is, rose name in French, type in Russian, breeder's name in German and French.
To me, all this is worth the trouble because of two stunning and extant roses. I wonder can those Gartvissers be persuaded to hand over some photos?
REPLY
Reply #12 of 13 posted 6 APR 12 by Aurelija D.
Not quite, most of the Russian nobility did not speak Russian, and those that knew it, did not normally use it for the communication, because it was a language of the peasants. The Russian culture in general got some attention in the circles of nobility only with the rise of the Romanticism and the excellent art which was inspired by the folk tradition at that time. To make matters more complicated, in Crimea at the time of the Hartwiss, they spoke mostly Crimean Tatar language among the common folk.

I suppose the fact that Nikitsky Botanical garden calls him Gertvis is good enough reference to use that name as a synonym for Hartwiss, even though that tends to vary depending on who is translating the text into English (there are plenty of debates on translation issues in every field really).
REPLY
Discussion id : 75-987
most recent 13 JAN 14 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 9 JAN 14 by Vladimír Ježovič
More roses bred by Nikolai Anhorn von Hartwiss : http://roses-crimea.com/node/53

and about roses in Crimea, Ukraine.
REPLY
Reply #1 of 4 posted 10 JAN 14 by jedmar
Thank you for this link, will work it through over the next days.
REPLY
Reply #2 of 4 posted 10 JAN 14 by Eric Timewell
This is most exciting news, light thrown on a lost world.
REPLY
Reply #3 of 4 posted 11 JAN 14 by HMF Admin
Wonderful !
REPLY
Reply #4 of 4 posted 13 JAN 14 by Nastarana
There is a nice website at roses-crimea.com.

It is truly an excellent website, in several languages and with maps, beautiful photos and some very interesting articles.

Maybe the Crimean rose explorers will find some roses that had been thought to be extinct!
REPLY
Discussion id : 63-210
most recent 6 APR 12 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 2 APR 12 by Eric Timewell
Von Hartwiss's dates.
The Crimean scholars Klimenko, Rubtsov & Zykov have established von Hartwiss's dates in "Nikolai Andreyevich Hartwiss, second director of the Nikita Botanic Garden", Bulletin of the Nikita State Botanical Garden, Volume 92, Yalta, 2006, online at http://kajuta.net/node/2116.
Von Hartwiss was "born in the county of Kokengofe Volmarskogo, Livonia on 24 May 1793" into the Livonian nobility.
He was "director of the Nikita Garden for 36 years from 1824 until his death in 1860" on 24 November.
"Hartwiss was buried in the family vault of his estate, Artek" near Bear Mountain NE of Yalta.
REPLY
Reply #1 of 1 posted 6 APR 12 by jedmar
Thank you, dates added.
REPLY
Discussion id : 63-173
most recent 1 APR 12 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 1 APR 12 by CybeRose
A list of roses cultivated at Nikita is reproduced at http://kajuta.net/node/1266 (Thanks, Eric)
It includes 'Comtesse Pahlen', Comtesse Natalie Tchernichof' and 'Violacea', (122-124) as forms of Rosa indica (= chinensis semperflorens) raised from seed at Nikita. Also, #126 minima and #127 minima stellata

150. Rosa moschata rosea multiflora simpl.
175. Rosa pimpinellifolia plena alba, double perpetuelle = Estelle
REPLY
Reply #1 of 1 posted 1 APR 12 by Eric Timewell
Let me add to CyberRose's correctly named varieties. (Thanks, Karl.) Ukrainian scholars have clarified which roses were bred by von Hartwiss himself at Nikita Botanic Garden. The names are in French because the Russian and Crimean aristocracy spoke French, not Russian, at least to one another and von Hartwiss. Galichenko (2001) "Nicholas von Hartwiss and the rose collection of the Imperial Botanic Garden at Nikita" (www.kajuta.net/node/2114) gives the following in her fourth last, fifth last and sixth last paragraphs.
Hybrids of R. gallica:
'Incomparable de Livonia', 'Belle de Riga', 'Ombre de Riga', 'Foncee-brillante de Livonia'.
Hybrids of R. alba:
'Belle de Livonia', 'Blanche de Riga'.
Unknown parentage (but see CyberRose above):
'Belle de Nikita', 'Bouquet de Nikita', 'Comtesse Nathalie Tchernischoff', 'Comtesse Pahlen', 'Baronne Julie de Berkheim', possibly 'Comte Woronzof', 'Comtesse Woronzow' = 'Comtesse Elizabeth Woronzof'.
Bred from 'Grevilliea':
'Princesse Anne Golitzin', rich red, full flower two times the size of the parents'.
REPLY
© 2019 HelpMeFind.com