HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
most recent 3 days ago HIDE POSTS
Initial post 5 days ago by Huyustus
Rose Listing Omission

Ballon d'or
Reply #1 of 7 posted 5 days ago by jedmar
This is a florists rose. Do you have it?
Reply #2 of 7 posted 5 days ago by Huyustus
Yes, it's a florist's rose and I don't have this one.
Reply #3 of 7 posted 5 days ago by jedmar
We only list florists roses if there is really a need or a patent - otherwise it is endless
Reply #4 of 7 posted 5 days ago by Lee H.
Florist roses are a current topic at Rose Hybridizers. One exception to that rule that I’m sure would be appreciated, is if the parentage of that rose was published. I know that’s not common, but florist roses do often have desirable traits, and it may be valuable to hybridizers to know the source.
Reply #6 of 7 posted 5 days ago by jedmar
It is not a firm rule, only a matter of expediency due to limited time available. If a florists rose has no patent, parentage, is not sold in retail, no photos as a garden plant....there doesn't seem much need to list them. The listings of commercial producers of florists roses often do not include any information on breeder, breeding year, varietal name etc
Reply #7 of 7 posted 3 days ago by Huyustus
I find it interesting to know what crosses have been made.
This should not remain a secret.
Knowing the ingredients of a recipe doesn't make you a great cook!
Yours sincerely
Reply #5 of 7 posted 5 days ago by Huyustus
Thank you for that clarification, I didn't know that.
most recent 3 days ago SHOW ALL
Initial post 19 MAY by CybeRose
Rose Listing Omission

Thomas Gerrard

Florist, Fruitist and Garden Miscellany (Dec 1881) p.188
THE NEW ROSE THOMAS GERRARD originated with Mr G. C. Garnett, an accomplished rosarian, residing near Dublin, and will be propagated and distributed by Messrs. Keynes and Son, of Salisbury. It is a sport, and the following is its history:— In July, 1878, a dwarf standard of Letty Coles, herself a sport, was budded with Niphetos; the bud did not push, but remained dormant during the winter. In the spring of 1879 it produced a shoot, which ultimately died away. The blooms of that year and 1880 were those of Letty Coles, very fine, but true to colour and character. In April 1881, a strong shoot appeared, producing two flower-buds, which, when fully developed, were both parti-coloured or piebald, the colours white and salmon-rose. After Mr. Garnett had cut away the wood to forward for propagation to the Messrs. Keynes, a second sport of three blooms appeared, all rose-coloured, and only one showing the colour and perfection of the first sport. Some of the most noteworthy roses in cultivation have resulted from cross-budding. Marshal Niel, the finest of all yellow roses, it is said originated in this way; a bud of Cloth of Gold was inserted on wood of the American Isabella Gray, the result of the union being the famous Marshal Niel. Then, again, Mabel Morrison was produced from bud variation produced through the inoculation of Baroness Rothschild with Niphetos. Belle Lyonnaise is the outcome of Gloire de Dijon budded with Celine Forestier. Finally, Letty Coles herself is a bud sport from Madame Willermoz rose.
Reply #1 of 12 posted 19 MAY by Margaret Furness
I'm confused or amazed by this. Does cross-budding really produce sports? Not as I understand genetics. Maybe epigenetics?
Trawling rapidly through the references for Marechal Niel, I see it quoted as a chance seedling of Isabella Gray or Lamarque or Cloth of Gold, and as Solfatare x Isabella Gray. And at least two breeders named, and two versions of the story of how it got its name.
Fame leads to urban myth.
Reply #2 of 12 posted 20 MAY by jedmar
Added. This rose could just have been a throw-back to Mélanie Willermoz, of which Letty Coles was a sport itself.
Reply #3 of 12 posted 20 MAY by Margaret Furness
That makes sense. What it was budded onto made no genetic contribution to this rose, nor to the other examples cited.
Reply #4 of 12 posted 20 MAY by jedmar
I believe so too. Genetics wasn't understood so well in the 1880s.
Reply #5 of 12 posted 7 days ago by CybeRose
I didn't give the matter any thought when I found the little article. I have come across many odd notions in the old publications. Now I guess I'll have to do more searching to see if this "cross-budding" was a wide-spread practice of just a local fancy.
This is certainly the first time I've read that Marechal Niel was a sport of any kind.

A quick search informs me that the article was originally published in the Irish Farmer's Gazette.. So maybe the practice was more common in Ireland.
Wrong! Now I find that the much longer, original article was in The Indian Gardener. The author goes on the discuss buds of Xavier Olibo inserted on a strong cane of Marechal Niel. The following year, all the Marechal buds opened with a deep crimson running through every petal. Eventually, all the flowers were so colored. Maybe there is something to this ... if only in India.
Reply #6 of 12 posted 6 days ago by Margaret Furness
Can't buy it. All those roses budded on Dr Huey, R indica major, Fortuneana, R canina - you'd think someone would see something if there was any validity to it.
I think Jedmar is right - they just didn't know much about genetics when the article was written.
Reply #7 of 12 posted 6 days ago by CybeRose
I can't argue. I just like to note the odd and interesting things I find. Some influence may have been transient.
The article does not name the author, so I can't go any further in that direction.

Some apparent transient effects:

The Gardeners’ Monthly and Horticulturist 18: 266 (Sept. 1876)
Pink Marechal Niel Rose.—A pink Marechal Niel rose appears to have been secured by our excellent coadjutor Mr. Thomas Trussler, of Edmonton, and should it prove to bear the test of criticism it will add to the series of illustrations recorded of the reciprocal influence of stock and graft. A bud of John Hopper was entered on a brier in the usual way, and afterwards a bud of Marechal Niel was entered on John Hopper. The result is apparently a pink Marechal Niel. The flower before us is smaller than the type; it is pale lemon-yellow without, with a diaphonous tint of pink within, very pleasing, and in some degree resembling Devoniensis. Should it prove permanent it will be peculiarly interesting.— Gardener's Magazine.

American Gardening 14(9): 519 (1893)
Influence of Different Stocks on Marechal Niel Rose
JOHN DALLAS, Connecticut
Some years ago, in experimenting with different stocks in an endeavor to find the most suitable whereon to bud Marechal Niel, I was surprised at the different results attained, showing conclusively that the stock influences the color of the flowers. The stocks used were roses, America, Cloth of Gold [Chromatella], Lamarque and Ophier [Ophirie]. The stocks were planted at wide intervals in a span-roofed house, in two rows six feet apart, running north and south. All were budded at the same height, and trained horizontally on a wire trellis, forming an arbor 162 feet long by 6 feet wide. All made rapid growth and filled their allotted space. America is a buff or apricot-colored rose, and in many respects a good, serviceable running rose. An old Connecticut rose grower made the assertion that this rose stood in the same relation to the family of roses that America does to the family of nations. Although I am unable to endorse his sentiment regarding the rose, I can fully recommend it as an excellent stock for Marechal Niel. The union was so complete that years after it was impossible to tell where it had been budded. The flowers of Marechal Niel were lighter in color on this stock than on Cloth of Gold, which, but for one fault, is much the best stock of those under consideration. This fault is the inability of the stock to keep pace in growth with the Marechal Niel, causing a protuberance at the point of union, and finally resulting in a cankerous disease. The flowers from this stock were a very deep yellow, remarkably so when placed beside those from the Lamarque stock. The Lamarque, besides producing very light-colored flowers, has the same fault as Cloth of Gold, and in a few years showed signs of canker where budded. Ophier is an old rose of a tan or copper color, short dumpy buds, but a fine cup shape when nearly open. We have in this rose the most convincing proof of the influence of the stock on the color of the flowers, and not only the color but also the form. The petals of the Marechal Niel were deeply tinted with copper color half their length, the base of the flower a deep yellow, and the form of the flower was almost identical with Ophier. All the stocks under consideration had the same soil, equal light advantages, but yet produced decidedly different shades of yellow, and each retained these characteristics until they were destroyed.
Reply #8 of 12 posted 5 days ago by Margaret Furness
Reply #9 of 12 posted 5 days ago by CybeRose
Absence of red pigment in a flower is sometimes a dominant trait. Mansuino's beautiful 'Purezza' was bred from 'Tom Thumb' and R. banksiae lutescens. He wrote, "By crossing the seedling (R. banksiae lutescens x Tom Thumb) with the old Noisette Lamarque I have lately obtained a Banksiae type bearing beautiful deep rose colored flowers. Its open-pollinated seeds gave last year some Miniatures producing in profusion flowers of charming colors."

I'm guessing that the red pigment potential was hiding in both of the white-flowered parents. This implies that the absence of red pigment, in these cases, was a matter of gene regulation rather than the old "presence-absence" assumption.

As it happens, such regulation can involve epigenetic control of "transposons". And this can be transmitted between grafts, assuming that the controlling system of one part of the graft is compatible with the relevant transposon of the other.

The cases I mentioned suggest that 'Marechal Niel' has the chemical machinery to make red pigment (as we see in its leaves), but carries the "not in the petals" suppression factor.

'Niphetos' seems to have carried a strong dose of red-suppression ... enough to affect other varieties. But without the genuine 'Niphetos', testing is not possible.

One other fact to consider: Diamond Jubilee (Marechal Niel x Feu Pernet-Ducher)
This rose can't decide how much pink color to mix with the soft yellow. The "dominant non-red" is also found in the Pernetianas.
Reply #10 of 12 posted 5 days ago by Margaret Furness
That makes sense.
I'm guessing that propagating the scion further, either own-root or on a different stock, would lose the controlling effect of the first understock.
Reply #11 of 12 posted 4 days ago by CybeRose
This whole business gets tangled in language and negative logic. Silencing a suppression, for instance, looks like promotion of what was formerly suppressed.
The Garcia-Perez (2004) paper indicates that the silencing can pass across the graft union and "stick". And once the silencing is established, it can pass along the silencing "signal".
So why not every time? This is where I can't go on guessing. There are cases where the age of the stock and scion are relevant. For instance, it was discovered around 200 years ago that seedling cherries, pears, apples, and other trees will adopt the root-growth habit of the mature scions grafted on them. This worked on almost all seedlings (aside from some stubborn specimens) but only if the saplings are no more than two or three years old.
Reply #12 of 12 posted 3 days ago by Margaret Furness
Well, I've learned something from all this.
most recent 6 days ago HIDE POSTS
Initial post 6 days ago by Huyustus
Rose Listing Omission

Friendly Red
Reply #1 of 1 posted 6 days ago by jedmar
Thank you, added!
most recent 10 days ago HIDE POSTS
Initial post 10 days ago by Huyustus
Who is he? (quiz of the day)

I bought this bare-root rose for the variety "The Mayflower" (AUSTIN), but it is flowering yellow instead of pink. Who could it be?
Thank you in advance for any help in identifying this rose,
Reply #1 of 3 posted 10 days ago by jedmar
Possibly 'Buttercup' by Austin. As David Austin controls propagation and licensing strictly, I would complain to them.
Reply #3 of 3 posted 10 days ago by Huyustus
Thank you both for your replies, the flower does look like a buttercup, but at home they are small, so I'll add another picture (N°6).
It's true that it annoys me when I order a variety and receive something completely different instead, and I've had this happen to me several times...
Reply #2 of 3 posted 10 days ago by Lee H.
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