HELPMEFIND PLANTS COMMERCIAL NON-COMMERCIAL RESOURCES EVENTS PEOPLE RATINGS
|
|
|
jedmar 
-
-
|
Bonjour,
La photo de AmiRoses concernant la rose 'Madame Louis Ricard' parait bien être celle qui pousse sur un arceau à L'Hay les Roses. Celle que je cultive vient de cet arceau, un rosier très sarmenteux. Chez moi il fait des tiges aisément palissables de plus de 4 m, ce qui ne me parait pas vraiment correspondre à un Hybride remontant. D'autre part, il n'est pas remontant ! Il peut parfois présenter quelques rares roses à l'automne tout comme j'en trouve sur mon Alba semi-plena. Je me garderai bien d'oser dire que sa floraison remonte !
Je possède A Celebration of Old Roses de Trevor Griffiths, 1990. A la page 98, il écrit " Mme Louis Ricard (1904). Large, double, bright pink blooms a freely produced on a vigourous plant. Raised by Boutigny, this hybrid is of more recent origins." Je confirme que la floraison de printemps est remarquablement abondante (et parfumée). Mais Griffiths ne dit pas qu'il est remontant, contrairement à la référence sur HMF lcitant à la page 98 : "Mme Louis Ricard. Hybrid Perpetual. Boutigny (1904) ... Je n'ai pas le Rosenlexikon et ma Nomenclature de tous les noms de Roses, se trouve quelque part à retrouver...
Amicalement,
Daniel
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#1 of 2 posted
4 days ago by
jedmar
|
Nous avons ajouté quelques reférence de JdR, modifié la classe au HR sarmenteux et changé la floraison.
Voulez-cous svp commenter sur le reférences de JDR 1910 à propos les roses 'Mlle Honorine Duboc' et 'Mme Louis Ricard' de Duboc?
|
REPLY
|
|
Bonjour,
A. Cochet a fait un travail remarquable en 1910 au sujet de quelques roses de Armand Garçon suite à son décès.
Il montre bien que la rose Bourbon appelée Madame Louis Ricard ( Duboc) et Mme Edmond Laporte sont identiques. Boutigny dans son livre de 1894 attribue cette rose à Garçon, elle n'est donc pas de Duboc. Elle n'a pas, comme il est dit, été éditée en 1892, puisqu'à l'occasion de sa lithographie présentée en 1892, il est écrit qu'une commercialisation prochaine est espérée. Un petit détail,, le JDR écrit Ricard avec un T à la fin. C'est une faute de frappe. Louis Ricard, fut maire de Rouen et ministre, il n'y donc pas de doute sur l'orthographe de son nom. J'ajouterai une remarque personnelle : pour aller à l'école (on y allait a pieds à l'époque) je devais traverser 4 fois par jour la rue Louis Ricard, je confirme son orthographe Ricard !.
De même les roses Mme Céphalie Laurent (Boutigny) et Mlle Honorine Duboc (Duboc) sont identiques et de Garçon.
Dans mon livre en cours sur l'histoire de la rose en Normandie, je détaille ces aspects en ajoutant les propos de la Société d'Horticulture de Rouen à l'époque.
Cordialement,
Daniel
|
REPLY
|
-
-
|
Bonjour,
The Rosenlexikon est très souvent mentionné dans les Références.
Pourriez-vous ajouter à la présentation de ce livre ce que veulent dire par exemple 3/10 pour le parfum et surtout pour la taille du rosier ?
Merci.
Cordialement
Daniel
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#1 of 2 posted
24 MAR by
jedmar
|
Dans le Rosenlexikon, le parfum et la croissance des roses sont notés de 1 à 10. Nous montrons cela entre 1/10 et 10/10.
|
REPLY
|
|
OK, mais je ne comprends toujours pas ce que veut dire x/10 pour la croissance d'une rosier.
Le Rosenlexikon se trouve être en vente en ligne actuellement, mais c'est autour de 150 Euros !
Cordialement,
Daniel
|
REPLY
|
-
-
|
OK, trying again....
The 1824 Pronville reference does NOT classify it as once-blooming. The second quoted segment in the reference here does not refer to 'Var. Anemating' but instead is a sort of "side-note" about China roses -- though they were previously described under the header of "semperflorens" ("ever-blooming"), their seedlings bloom once per year. This probably refers to the time before controlled pollination, and the hips collected from the Chinas may thus be pollinated by once-blooming European roses, the resulting seedlings being once-blooming Hybrid Chinas. Please see link below, start at page 177 (where the header of LVII 'R. semperflorens' appears at line 277), then follow through the list of repeat-blooming Chinas. Then, on page 178, you'll see the next line quoted in the reference for this rose appearing as a sort of side-note: "N. B. Toutes les varietes de semis du bengal ne fleurissent qu'une fois l'anee" which translates to "All varieties of China seedlings bloom only once a year".
www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/52529#page/194/mode/1up
The 1826 Noisette reference (linked below) does list this rose among other known once-blooming Hybrid Chinas, and that is a bit of a mystery, considering the other references listed here. I wonder if perhaps a seedling of 'Animating' was passed off as 'Animating' and Noisette described that rose. The practice of giving parent-names to seedlings was not always known to be incorrect at that time -- surely the subtle variations of the first Chinas in Europe as depicted in paintings and descriptions result from, for example, seedlings of 'Slater's Crimson' being raised as 'Slater's Crimson'. Another possibility is that Noisette simply made an error.
Considering that Noisette's is the only reference calling the rose once-blooming, and that other references list this rose as among those imported directly from China (thus not a "classic Hybrid China" with a European rose parent), is it not more likely that one reference was incorrect about this characteristic rather than that all the others were?
www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/95904#page/531/mode/1up
:-)
~Christopher
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#1 of 3 posted
2 days ago by
odinthor
|
LeRouge (1819) says, "There aren’t any fanciers who can make it bloom all year."
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#2 of 3 posted
yesterday by
jedmar
|
Could it be that there were different roses propagated under this name? The 1823 reference states it was blooming end of September in Boursault's garden.
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#3 of 3 posted
yesterday by
odinthor
|
While it's intellectually conceivable that there could be different China roses under one name, the rose folks of that time (and of all times!) were pretty sharp-eyed for (a) new roses on the scene, and (b) shenanigans by competitors and rivals. It would be most odd if someone wouldn't have published something warning people not to get two same-named roses mixed up, especially as one was a sparse bloomer, indeed perhaps a once-bloomer. That, and 'Animating' (in whatever form) is a most odd name for a rose (could the Chinese equivalent, with different naming traditions, have been the original name back in its place of origin?). That two roses at the same time would manage independently to have the same weird name seems unlikely; that someone would attempt a rip-off by knowingly naming another rose the same would be lunacy, given what I stated above, that the rose folks of that time were pretty sharp-eyed (especially when dealing with a comparatively new, exciting, and so closely-watched category like Chinas which had quite a limited number of varieties at that time to deal with)--the fraud would be detected without much delay, and the fraudster denounced. I tend to think that the range of differences found would more likely be due to cultural factors--own-root/grafted, grown outdoors/grown in a glass-house, weather here/weather there, even perhaps just the simple amount of skill or lack of it for particular growers.
|
REPLY
|
-
-
|
Who was the breeder - Hansen or Whitman Cross? See references.
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#1 of 2 posted
yesterday by
jedmar
|
Neils Hansen was the gardener of Whitman Cross in Chevy Chase. It seems that this rose was registered from the beginning as a cultivar of Hansen.
|
REPLY
|
|
|
