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Rockhill
most recent 4 SEP SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 9 MAY by HubertG
I have my doubts about whether the rose I grow as 'Papa Gontier' (from Ross Roses) really is the correct variety.
Mine never sets hips. Nabonnand (who bred this rose) used it as a seed parent for quite a few varieties, and as dedicated crosses too, not just as randomly gathered hips. Also, 'Lady Hillingdon' is supposed to have PapaG as its seed parent as well.
I remember reading quite an old reference in one of the rose annuals (1950's, 60's?) that it was a triploid, which is all good for my rose, but doesn't make a lot of sense if Nabonnands were actively pollinating it.

Also, the commonest characteristic in the early descriptions is its very long pointed bud. I can get longish buds in cooler months but no longer than other tea roses introduced at the time. During the warmer months the flowers actually come very small and are rather irregular in shape. The early descriptions of a very large flower just don't match. The few photos that exist don't really match either. It's hard to imagine the plant I grow being used as a florists' rose, even by late 19th century standards.

So I'm in two minds about whether this is correct. Does anyone else's 'Papa Gontier' set hips? Has anyone else had doubts about this rose before?

Another thing is that Papa Gontier's sport 'Rainbow' resembles the early descriptions (apart from the stripes of course) but doesn't resemble my rose, in flower form etc.
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Reply #1 of 13 posted 9 MAY by Margaret Furness
The Tea book says "hip small, globular, yellow to orange". Its photo of the bud looks like yours.
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Reply #2 of 13 posted 9 MAY by HubertG
Thanks Margaret. It also says "only an occasional small, yellow hip matures, containing one or two seeds.".
There are seven offspring listed here with Papa Gontier as the seed parent, five of which are Nabonnand roses. I guess the Nabonnands were just very persistent in making crosses.

I also felt the shape of the rose didn't quite match the early photos, and some descriptions such as the 6cm long bud and 5" open flower ones seemed discordant.
Also the 1880's Nabonnand catalogues describe the centre as shaded yellow, which I can only see on one Papa Gontier photo here, and an old illustration, but never on mine (but which also seems to occur on 'Rainbow').
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Reply #3 of 13 posted 10 MAY by billy teabag
If yours isn't especially prickly, you may have something else.
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Reply #4 of 13 posted 10 MAY by HubertG
Quite possibly, but mine does rather look like the other Australian Papa Gontiers here.

Does anyone who grows Papa Gontier get flowers up to 12-13cm across like the 'Journal des Roses' describes?
Or gets yellow in the base?
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Reply #5 of 13 posted 10 MAY by billy teabag
Flower size is generally a bit 'how long is a piece of string'-ish with Teas. It depends on whether they are maiden plants, chopped back hard or lightly trimmed (or not trimmed at all); whether they open quickly in heat or slowly in cooler weather; whether grown under cover or the open air.
My 'Papa Gontier' has yellow petal nubs lightening to pale, creamy yellow in the eye zone.
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Reply #6 of 13 posted 10 MAY by Rockhill
The Tea Rose book gives the size of 'Papa Gontier' flowers as 10-15 cms and when conditions are favourable my very big, long-established bush does have flowers that are up to 15 cms in width. The buds are long and pointed and open quickly, the irregular just-double flowers are deep carmine-pink to paler pink, variable in shape and the stems are prickly. All the other 'Papa Gontier's that I have seen in Australia are the same. There are plenty of stamens and carpals and it looks like a very fertile rose. The fact that it only sets an occasional hip is probably due to genetic complications resulting from its being triploid. As for its being a florists’s rose, I have found if picked before they begin to open on the bush and put into a vase, they last very well as cut flowers. On HMF there are a few pale pink flowers that do not look much like what we call 'Papa Gontier' here. Overall, I think that the rose I grow as ‘Papa Gontier’ very well matches the early French descriptions and the rose recognised as being 'Papa Gontier' by the Friends of Nabonnand Roses.
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Reply #7 of 13 posted 10 MAY by Margaret Furness
I think the Papa Gontier at Renmark was imported many decades ago by Alex Ross, and passed on to David Ruston. From there it was likely to have been the major source of budwood in Australia.
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Reply #9 of 13 posted 10 MAY by HubertG
Margaret, probably all the Papa Gontiers in Australia are from that same source (unless some old known specimen has been discovered here) but whether it is the correct variety or not was what I was questioning.
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Reply #8 of 13 posted 10 MAY by HubertG
Rockhill, thanks, that's encouraging to know someone does get large flowers.
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Reply #10 of 13 posted 11 MAY by Patricia Routley
I would go along with 15cm for 'Papa Gontier'. That pen in my Oct 16, 2010 photo (158840) measures 13.5c. My plant does not grow very well, possibly being set back in its youth by a small shrub which smothered it.

I haven't really done any homework on these roses, but I would look ar two roses and their sports: I wonder about the difference between 'Improved Rainbow' and 'Mme Driout' and it may be the height.

'Papa Gontier' 1882
'Rainbow' 1889 (broad stripes')
'Improved Rainbow' c1893 (fine stripes)

'Reine Marie Henriette' (a climber)
'Mme. Driout' 1901 (A climber)
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Reply #11 of 13 posted 11 MAY by Rockhill
At one time, Patricia, my 'Papa Gontier' plant measured about 5 metres wide by 3 metres high but I had to cut it back before it took over that part of my garden. This is just part of what it looked like in its prime.
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Reply #12 of 13 posted 11 MAY by Patricia Routley
How absolutely wonderful. Good gardener. Good conditions.
But I am thinking of the height of 'Papa Gontier's sport/s and I will respond further in 'Rainbow's file.
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Reply #13 of 13 posted 4 SEP by HubertG
I'm beginning to wonder if the rose sold in Australia as 'Papa Gontier' could in fact be 'Rose d'Evian'.
'Rose d'Evian has the same contrasting colours on the inner and reverse of the petals, large blooms, long buds, dense bushy growth.
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most recent 15 AUG 17 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 10 AUG 13 by Rockhill
Extract from Sweet, 18390, which shows China as place of origin for R. indica odorata v. flavescens.
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Reply #1 of 1 posted 15 AUG 17 by CybeRose
In the terminology of the time, a seedling was considered to be a "variety" of the parent. And thus of the same "nationality". Unless the seedling was an obvious hybrid.

Also, Loudon (Hortus Britannicus, p. 211. 1830) gave 1821 as the date of introduction for 'flavescens Hort.'
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most recent 6 JUL 17 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 5 JUL 17 by Patricia Routley
HelpMeFind currently has a date of <1829, which is 256 years later than 1573.
That's in my too-hard basket.
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Reply #1 of 2 posted 5 JUL 17 by Rockhill
I would not rely on any Komlosy dates, Patricia, he's not a model of accuracy.
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Reply #2 of 2 posted 6 JUL 17 by Patricia Routley
OK. Thanks Hillary.
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PhotoDiscussion id : 102-024
most recent 5 JUL 17 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 5 JUL 17 by Patricia Routley
Perhaps it might be 'Prince Albert' (bourbon, Fontaine/Paul, 1852)? If you agree, Hillary, you could move the illustration:
click on REASSIGN (top left) / PLANT / CONTINUE / type in ....Prince Albert.... / and just follow the prompts. We can do it for you if you prefer.
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Reply #1 of 1 posted 5 JUL 17 by Rockhill
Will look at this later today, Patricia.
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