HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
most recent 3 MAR SHOW ALL
Initial post 30 APR 14 by goncmg
Was part of the Jackson & Perkins test roses in the mid-70's but J&P declined to introduce it although at the end of the test year they disclosed to growers that it was already released in Europe as 'Adolf Horstmann.' Edmunds is the one who seems to have released this in the US, early 80's. Foliage is gorgeous and petal substance is heavy and crisp. Lots of vegative centers.
Reply #1 of 1 posted 3 MAR by Michael Garhart
Edmunds sold it for eons. I never took it on, because it has the Golden Wave curse. Meaning, low light climates had a harsh, negative affect on it from March through mid-July.
most recent 16 FEB SHOW ALL
Initial post 30 JUN 14 by goncmg
Guess this is an "update" : my earlier impressions of this one are correct-------------AWFUL rose. Yes (see my other comments) it is VIGOROUS and loves to throw basals, but otherwise a total trainwreck. It has been raining endlessly in Columbus this June. Blackspot. For sure. BUT I SPRAY! I grow them in pots and place the pots in heavily, freshly mulched beds..............Soleil d'Or is "clean".............out of my 100+, ALL are "more than fine/just a touch" other than.............Oregold. DEFOLIATED. And the open blooms fade quickly and the petals curl back into a spikey ball. Like Countess Vandal. From 1932. Only CV has far more interesting color. And is, albeit a pertnetiana, HEALTHIER.................absolutely no idea how Oregold scored an AARS here in the states. Horrible, horrible rose. The trash comes in the morning and Oregold is IN the bin, ready for the landfill. My optimism in prior posts was misplaced. Otherwise my recollection of this one was spot-on. If you see this one in the wax bag bin or as a $25 band-----PASS. Save something else as a wax body bag. Invest in a better one. Summer Sunshine? King's Ransom? If you are shopping bands? This one is awful. Just awful.
Reply #1 of 1 posted 16 FEB by Michael Garhart
Keep Smiling has been great, if you can get it.
most recent 3 FEB SHOW ALL
Initial post 1 JUL 13 by goncmg
Immeasurably important rose considering not only that it begat Queen Elizabeth lines (and appears in many 60's-70's miniatures along with R. Wichuriana), but also the clear vermillion color, very unique for 1945. Foliage is lovely: bright and glossy, the plant often produces huge trusses of bloom and the scent is notable for me, rather spicey. Downside is the addiction to blackspot. Tantau was known for not disclosing a lot of his breeding parentages and I have always wondered if the cross that resulted in Floradora was not more complex, Baby Chateau x R. Roxburghii SEEDLING or something. Seems very odd that with that father as listed the plant would look so modern, everything about it, and that there wouldn't have been some non-recurrent grandchildren (Queen E's generation).....??? Does anyone have any opinions on this or any information?
Reply #1 of 7 posted 2 JUL 13 by Patricia Routley
I too have been a bit interested in 'Floradora' but it has never come my way. I've spent an hour or so gathering reference page numbers for both 'Floradora' and 'Floradora Cl.' in case I ever get the impetus or need to look closer at the rose.

In the 1950 'Australian Rose Annual', C. H. Isaac, Victoria. said the parentage of 'Floradora' was 'Baby Chateau) (Hyb Poly) x Rosa Multibracteata (Species). So far it was the only mention of a parentage I've seen, but my search has only been a perfunctory one.
Reply #2 of 7 posted 27 OCT 15 by Michael Garhart
If I had to guess, I would hypothesize that the Rosa roxbughii pollen was not truly accepted, and that it prompted the female parts of 'Baby Chateau' to double itself into fertile seed. I have used a relative of R. roxburghii on 'Belle Epoque', which was pollinated between rains, removed of any male parts prior to pollen release, and then covered. The likelihood of impurity was really low, and the likelihood of an impure seed germinating was even lower. The only surviving seedling came out as a near clone of 'Belle Epoque', except strong in color, completely seed sterile, and extremely thin. It was a very weird occurrence. Vigor was oddly strong.
Reply #3 of 7 posted 27 OCT 15 by goncmg
Really interesting, Michael! Looking at Floradora I think you may have nailed it!
Reply #4 of 7 posted 1 FEB by CybeRose
Another possibility is that Floradora and its siblings are partial hybrids. Pollination occurs in the usual way, but the paternal chromosomes are mostly eliminated. This phenomenon has been observed in other genera, such as Helianthus, Solanum, etc.

Wulff (1954) wrote: "There is another remarkable fact to note. Without going into details I may state here that the three roses 'Floradora', 'Käthe Duvigneau', and 'Cinnabar', as well as the hybrid 46534, did not show any traces of the male parent Rosa Roxburghii in their morphology. The first three roses are true hybrid polyanthas, the latter is a true hybrid tea, indicating thus that the genes which are responsible for the respective characters of growth habit and for many characters of shape and size of flowers, fruits, leaves and spines are dominant to the allelic genes of R. Roxburghii. Only anatomical studies revealed a certain similarity and relationship to the latter species."

It would have been helpful if he had given us more information about those anatomical studies.
Reply #5 of 7 posted 2 FEB by Michael Garhart
Hi, Karl,

Interesting. You're right. That just begs for more information, with questions to follow.
Reply #6 of 7 posted 3 FEB by CybeRose
I have a list of possible examples of partial hybridization ... some old, some new ... that are suggestive at least.
If you are interested in the subject.
Reply #7 of 7 posted 3 FEB by Michael Garhart
Thank you!!!

I bookmarked them for nighttime hours.
most recent 7 JAN SHOW ALL
Initial post 22 NOV 12 by goncmg
Pulling apart the history of AARS, I truly DO want to know what HAPPENED with this one? The breeder was huge, the color was TRENDY.........the form, full and often amazingly good and star shaped was "of the moment"............2 years later, in 1971, COMMAND PERFORMANCE would win AARS and it looks quite a lot like BIENVENU but lacks any sort of fragrance...........COMANCHE, by the same breeder as Bienvenu, won AARS the year Bienvenu got released as well and although a GOOD rose, Comanche has extremely sparse foliage and is a very awkward rose to classify, its bush form, loose and sparse, reminds me of 1937's Contrast...............did Bienvenu get entered into the AARS trials? Did Swim/Weeks overlook it? Because, with that star shaped bloom that quite often has shockingly good form, it really COULD have been a winner of that highest award..............and a side-note, Verna Weeks discussed in an early 70's ARS annual how Weeks named their roses and admitted this odd name was simply pulled from a hat.................
Reply #1 of 6 posted 22 NOV 12 by jedmar
I can imagine two reasons for the disappearance of these roses:
- orange and orange-red was a fashion colour in the early 70s (I had lamps, tableware, seats, etc.) and then was suddenly Mega-out, as they say today.
- the roses of the time were often susceptible to blackspot and mildew
Reply #2 of 6 posted 22 NOV 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
Unless Command Performance performed better in the various AARS test gardens. In some climates, Bienvenu may be great, but if the scores were higher across the board for CP, even with the more sparse foliage and awkward plant, it's quite possible for it to outclass Bienvenu. It's also quite possible Command Performance was easier to produce.
Reply #3 of 6 posted 7 JAN by Michael Garhart
Going to take the historical view and guess Impatient, Trumpeter, Prominent, New Year, and Shreveport steamrolled the rest. 3 were closer to true orange, and 2 were short enough be more aesthetic (orange at eye level can be hard to place in many landscapes).
Reply #4 of 6 posted 7 JAN by Rupert, Kim L.
Another possibility we've not considered is how the AARS selections were made. Part of it was how the rose scored across the test gardens, but another part, not advertised, was whose "turn" it was to win. Yes, some won seemingly more than their "fair share" but there were rumblings throughout the eighties and early nineties that some higher scoring roses were overlooked due to it being someone else's turn to win. Remember, those who selected the winners were also those who submitted roses for trial.
Reply #5 of 6 posted 7 JAN by Michael Garhart
AARS was my favorite marketing gimmick :P That's essentially what it was. There were a few good AARS winners though, but that's like saying you still get a dollar back every few lottery tickets lol.
Reply #6 of 6 posted 7 JAN by Rupert, Kim L.
Bingo! :}
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