HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
most recent 10 SEP SHOW ALL
Initial post 8 SEP 14 by mtspace
When it gets adequate moisture, this is among my favorite roses because of the color of its rather informal blooms. The foliage sets them off perfectly. The growth habit, being rangy and awkward, requires more management than I'd like. Its worst problem is that it seems to be more adversely affected by drought than just about any other rose in my collection of over 200 cultivars. I've lost two, almost three, to dry conditions. Lesser roses I would have given up on long ago. It seems happier in clay than in very light soils if it is to endure long dry periods.
Reply #1 of 5 posted 9 NOV 16 by StrawChicago Alkaline clay 5a
Thank you for that fantastic info. In my experience, yellow and orange rose need lots of moisture, and clay holds moisture better than sand. How's the scent on South Africa? Is it very light, or is it noticeable? Thank you.
Reply #2 of 5 posted 9 NOV 16 by mtspace
I cannot say the scent is notable. Certainly Graham Thomas and Golden Celebration do better in this area. Also, the flowers are not very durable; it's certainly not a cutting rose. Still, it's a wonderful thing to behold when it is at the peak of bloom and enjoying ideal conditions.

Two surprises: 1) planted near Day Breaker, Lady Pamela Carol, and Graham Thomas it sets hips that turn a wonderful pumpkin orange. 2) given adequate moisture and light, it sports an occasional bloom right up until frost.
Reply #3 of 5 posted 9 NOV 16 by StrawChicago Alkaline clay 5a
Thank you for your thorough answers. I appreciate that !!
Reply #4 of 5 posted 28 APR by happymaryellen
My first one is blooming right now, I just planted this as a standard in February. The fragrance is the part that I’m most interested about because it does have fragrance and it’s unusual. I am so surprised that nobody else said anything about the fragrance. I wouldn’t say it’s strong but it is notably unique
Reply #5 of 5 posted 10 SEP by Plazbo
First flower for me here in Australia.

Kind of a medium strength for me in the middle of the day and direct sun, not a wafter but obvious if you go and sniff the flower. I can detect sweet lemon/citrus but that's the most common smell I detect in most moderns so I'm possibly not the best sniffer.
most recent 12 JUN HIDE POSTS
Initial post 12 JUN by mtspace
I have just upgraded my membership. I have attempted to do an advanced search on Origin, but the widget to input a breeder's name is grayed out. When will I be able to use this widget? And what would I have to do?
Reply #1 of 2 posted 12 JUN by Palustris
Try logging out and then logging in again.
Reply #2 of 2 posted 12 JUN by mtspace
Yes. Thank You. That worked.
most recent 29 OCT SHOW ALL
Initial post 20 FEB 14 by Michael Garhart
I wish there were articles or documentation about how the Southern European countries began striped roses. It is obvious that they began before roses like Scentimental hit the market, so it makes me wonder if there is a story to tell.
Reply #1 of 12 posted 2 APR 18 by mtspace
Ferdinand Pichard has bee around for a long time. It lurks in the ancestry of Oranges 'n' Lemons as it does in the ancestry of Scentimental.
Reply #2 of 12 posted 2 APR 18 by Andrew from Dolton
Do you think they could ultimately all descend from Rosa gallica 'Versicolor'? Are there any striped roses without any gallica blood in them at all?
Reply #3 of 12 posted 3 APR 18 by Lyn G
Andrew ...

You may be interested in this article written by Ralph Moore:
Reply #4 of 12 posted 3 APR 18 by Michael Garhart
Yes, some teas are striped.

FP is related to other H.Perpetuals. They share an odd type of feathery, pointed foliage, which is kind of interesting.

I am not completely convinced virus is the only source. Maybe it's just a simple mutation. I think most of my frustration is that there is no lineage bridges from of the original modern roses (gallics, for example) to the early 1900s.
Reply #5 of 12 posted 3 APR 18 by Andrew from Dolton
Thank you Lyn that was really informative.
Michael are the stripy Teas pure Teas? The foliage of 'Ferdinand Pichard' is also a pale colour too similar to certain others. The gaps in the family trees are as annoying as with "blue" roses too.
Reply #6 of 12 posted 20 FEB 19 by Michael Garhart
It's not possible to know. Many lines ends in information between 1800 and 1850.

I am guessing that striping is a form of incomplete inheritance in some lines of roses. I am also guessing that bicolors further disambiguate the incompletion.
Reply #7 of 12 posted 20 FEB 19 by Robert Neil Rippetoe
Ralph Moore introduced modern striped genetics via, 'Ferdinard Pichard'.

I was around and knew him at the time. All modern striped roses descend from his work.

They created quite a stir and they still do.
Reply #8 of 12 posted 20 FEB 19 by Andrew from Dolton
I REALLY like 'Stars 'n' Stripes' and would just love to know the parentage of 'Ferdinand Pichard'.
Reply #9 of 12 posted 21 FEB 19 by Michael Garhart
That line is from:

They have foliage unlike most HPs of the time, with slight serration and more linear leaflets. Sometimes with undulating disfigurement to the whole leaflet.

Vebert spanned 50some years, it spans many types of roses, and a lot of the work doesn't have a lineage. He used a lot of moss and centifolia, which makes me wonder if a mutation from those was not the source. Specifically centifolia x gallica backgrounds, which are prone to mutations of all sorts. Including color breaking. It is perhaps he found a mutation that was not genetically superficial and kept the stripe from it, which happened to be a simple single.
Reply #10 of 12 posted 28 OCT by Rupert, Kim L.
Mr. Moore chose Ferdinand Pichard precisely because it was the only striped rose he could find for which there was no stated parentage, and wasn't a sport. Therefore, it held the greatest opportunity for him to mine stripes from it. It took a long time, but he did it and, as Robert stated, modern stripes all come from those original Little Darling X Ferdinand Pichard seedlings.
Reply #11 of 12 posted 29 OCT by Michael Garhart
I originally made this thread because I had wondered what the exact source of stripes that landed in Europe was. For example, in New Zealand, McGredy began with Stars n Stripes. It took him quite some time to breed the lankiness out of them, although his most popular from that venture, Oranges and Lemons, still suffered from lankiness. Essentially, I had wondered which derivative ignited the same in Europe, and which company landed the derivative first. It does seem Delbard had among the earliest access of those in Europe. I recall they even had a striped russet.
Reply #12 of 12 posted 29 OCT by Rupert, Kim L.
Mr. Moore loved telling the story that McGredy asked him for Pinstripe, his best stripe to that point as it is a bushy, dwarf plant without the ranginess of the earlier types, but Mr. Moore wasn't finished exploring it. He did give McGredy Stars'n Stripes and suggested he raise selfs from it to fix the dwarf, bushy plant habit. McGredy obviously didn't take his advice for some time as every stripe he raised from it ran rangy.
most recent 1 JUN 19 SHOW ALL
Initial post 6 MAR 09 by John Moody
I am getting conflicting reports on this rose. Is it a floribunda, grandiflora, or hybrid tea rose???
I love the color of the photos, and most of the pictures look to have more the form of a floribunda rather than a hybrid tea or grandiflora.
Reply #1 of 5 posted 7 MAR 09 by Cass
If Kordes would register it, you would have the straight info. Unfortunately, it's sold within different classes in different parts of the world.
Floribunda in UK
Floribunda at Palantine Roses in Canada
Hybrid Tea in South Africa
Grandiflora at the ARS
Reply #2 of 5 posted 24 OCT 12 by mtspace
It really doesn't fit very well with our typical idea of the high-centered hybrid tea rose. Nor does it send up long, tall cutting canes typical of many hybrid tea roses. Its flowers occur in small clusters of three to seven or so. It tends to repeat-flower more often than most hybrid teas, in my experience. It seems more vigorous than most hybrid tea roses I have grown, too. I think of it as a floribunda with large flowers; and it really fits into the garden best on those terms. Its flowers are quite bright and it needs to be sited accordingly. One of my favorites.
Reply #3 of 5 posted 27 JUN 17 by Philip_ATX
I don't believe the category of "Grandiflora" exists outside the U.S., so it makes sense that it falls on one side or the other of that category (HT or Flor.) in other countries. I don't grow it, however, so I cannot speak from experience to its form.
Reply #4 of 5 posted 27 JUN 17 by mtspace
The "Grandiflora" class has always seemed ridiculous to me. The whole idea of floribundas, IMO, is to combine the large flowers of hybrid tea roses with the floral generosity, cold hardiness, and shrubby habits of polyanthas. Every plant in the class necessarily posesses a combination of traits that lies somewhere in between. I will confess that I have viewed the grandiflora class as a kind of catch-all for roses that fail to have the shrubby and hardiness qualities of floribundas while also failing to make flowers the size of hybrid tea roses.

To the extent my prejudice is justified, lumping South Africa with such roses understates its qualities materially. It is as generous in flower as a good floribunda, Cherry Parfait. And as well branched. It tolerates late spring freezes better than any HT bred outside Germany, IME. Its flowers are as big as those of many hybrid tea roses. I even love the foliage. Its frame and its flowers are largish for a floribunda. Coming in at five or six feet in each direction it might better be described as a shrub. Its biggest drawbacks: The flowers are not notably fragrant, and they don't last longer than about two or three days on the plant. Of the 200 + roses in my garden I cannot think of a rose I've been less tempted to replace with something else, except, perhaps, Malvern Hills.
Reply #5 of 5 posted 1 JUN 19 by Michael Garhart
There isn't a massive difference between Tournament of Roses and Savoy Hotel. Both roughly the same size, color, and bloom size. Yet, two classes. Technically, they are both semi-dwarf large-flowered rose bushes. The only arguable difference is ToR has sprays, but they typically have the same square area of color in any given year. In my opinion, it confuses consumers. The average buyer doesn't care about these nuances. The number one goal of rose culture should be to make roses more accessible to consumers. Not vice versa.
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