HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
most recent 12 days ago SHOW ALL
Initial post 11 MAR 17 by Andrew from Dolton
A few minutes walk from where I live, deep in the woods by the river Torridge is the remains of Dye Cottage. Abandoned 100 years ago, today I discovered by the entrance a couple of shoots of a rose. It has small pointed prickles on the older wood but is very unlikely that it will flower this year. It produces suckers. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what it could possibly be? Needless to say it has been rustled!
Reply #1 of 38 posted 11 MAR 17 by Nastarana
Whatever it might be it does have attractive foliage.
Reply #2 of 38 posted 11 MAR 17 by Andrew from Dolton
Indeed, I will just have to wait to see it in flower although it might not be until next year.
Reply #6 of 38 posted 30 JUN by scvirginia
Well, great- now we're ALL impatiently waiting for blooms. Yes, the foliage is quite fine; I like those reddish margins, but have no idea what they might indicate, ancestry-wise.

A nice find.
Reply #7 of 38 posted 30 JUN by Andrew from Dolton
When it stops tipping down with rain outside I will take some better pictures. I don't care if it is something common-place, what fascinates me is just discovering the name of an unknown plant. I would say I have a reasonably good eye and knowlege, but it does not look like any rose I can put my finger on. Just 10 minuites on foot from my door step, I found, 'Paul Lede', 'Turner's Crimson', R carolina 'Plena' and this rose. Then a short drive away a massive multiflora type rose by the side of the road with white flowers and very pretty deep pink buds. And Rosa dumalis, growing in the hedges, when most books say it only grows in the north. Of course none of these are lost, believed extinct or new but they are not common roses, just a few specialist nurseries are selling them. Interesting roses are all around us, where ever we live.
Reply #8 of 38 posted 30 JUN by Andrew from Dolton
Here are some new pictures. Dye Cottage was abandoned by World War I so I would estimate that for a variety of rose to have been bred, marketed and found its way to a remote part of Devon it must have been raised just at the turn of the century or earlier. The people living at the cottage would never have had the money to buy a plant, it would almost certainly have been aquired as a cutting or sucker. I could of course have been an understock, but in the U.K. you only really see laxa or 'Alba Simplex'.
It suckers from the roots and has quite a distinctive row of good sized prickles running along the mid-rib on the back of the leaf and incredibly healthy, not a hint of blackspot on it any where.
The very second a flower opens I will post a picture here.
Reply #9 of 38 posted 1 JUL by scvirginia
With foliage that clean and pretty, it almost doesn't matter what the flower looks like... though I guess it might help with finding an ID. Assuming it ever had a name, and wasn't a no-name volunteer?

I am jealous of your R. carolina plena. It is not in commerce in the U.S., as far as I can tell.


PS There was a period when Manetti was used in England for rootstock, but I don't think that's what you have there?
Reply #10 of 38 posted 1 JUL by Andrew from Dolton
Yes, it is similar to 'Manetti', and similar to other roses too!
Sorry Virginia, I made a mistake, it was cinnamomea 'Plena', not carolina. There is a lots of it growing in a hedgerow where a cottage was until 1900, Patricia helped me identify it last year. If the import/export rules were different I could send you "any amount" of this rose!
Reply #3 of 38 posted 11 MAR 17 by Give me caffeine
"Needless to say it has been rustled!"

Are you saying there was a rustle in the bushes?
Reply #4 of 38 posted 11 MAR 17 by Andrew from Dolton
There was a certain amount of rustling bushes involved and a covert night time operation as the whole area is a nature reserve.
Reply #5 of 38 posted 11 MAR 17 by Give me caffeine
You'd better hope MI5 doesn't have this site under surveillance. ;)
Reply #11 of 38 posted 30 MAY by Andrew from Dolton
The rose is flowering now, every shoot carries buds. I think it is 'Manettii' but the description says "thornless or almost" and this is very prickly.
Reply #12 of 38 posted 30 MAY by scvirginia
I can't tell from just the one photo, but do you think it could be 'De la Grifferaie'?

Just a thought,
Reply #13 of 38 posted 30 MAY by Andrew from Dolton
Thank you Virginia, I'll take more pictures at the weekend when more of the flowers are out, it is very free flowering.

Best wishes, Andrew.
Reply #14 of 38 posted 7 JUN by Andrew from Dolton
Here is a picture of the whole plant, it had all flopped over and I had to stake it up so it looks a bit strange whilst the shoots turn around toward the light.
Reply #15 of 38 posted 7 JUN by scvirginia
The stakes make it look like a HP, but could it be a climber if it's that floppy?

The flowers are really beautiful, but too double, I think, for 'Manetti'? Is the color closer to the magenta in the photo of the one bloom above, or more of the mid-pink in the whole plant photo? Lighting, flowers and cameras don't always tell the whole truth... Since she's prickly, I'm wondering about 'Climbing Caroline Testout', or even 'Climbing American Beauty'... I don't think you've mentioned fragrance?

Reply #16 of 38 posted 7 JUN by Andrew from Dolton
Hello Virginia,

The blooms just above my satellite dish are very typical, if anything they are a stronger pink than in the picture (almost 'Zéphirine Drouhin' pink) with distinctive paler backs to the petals and they fade as they age making more of a contrast between new and older flowers.
It could possibly be a climber. Every leaf node produced a shoot with flower buds, not just on the stems that bent over but on the shorter upright ones as well.
The cottage was abandoned by the first world war so I imagine it would have had to have been bred before 1900. The people living there would not ever have gone to a nursery and bought a plant or even have had one given to them. They would have been very poor and Dye Cottage would have been, and still is to some extent, very remote. The rose sends up suckers around its base and this is how they would have acquired it.
The flowers are mildly scented. I will post a more detailed picture when it's light tomorrow.

Best wishes, Andrew

edit. The sepals are long and twisted together
Reply #17 of 38 posted 14 days ago by Patricia Routley
"Dye Cottage" is a very lovely find, Andrew.
The leaves, long sepals, and suckering remind me of the Australian foundling "Mrs. Something". However, I believe it is not the same because
"Dye Cottage" does not have enough petals, is only mildly scented, and does not have the mass of balling buds at the tip of the canes.
I agree with Virginia, it is not Manetti (either the U.S. or Australian versions)
I suspect it is not 'Mme. Caroline Testout' because I am not seeing the center ball of petals evident in Testout and the leaf seems different.
I don't have 'de la Grifferaie' but you might like to have a look at the 2011 reference for that rose. A photo of the stipule will definitely confirm if it is, or isn't ''De la Grifferaie'.

In the meantime, if there is still a bud to photograph, a side-on shot will help.
Watch the bush for any hip set.
The signature for "Dye Cottage" seems to be that every leaf node produces a flower.
Reply #18 of 38 posted 13 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Thank you Patricia, how exciting.
It is definitely not 'de la Grifferaie', the older blooms do go paler but not to that extent and I can not see much multiflora in it if at all. The sepals are wrong for 'Mrs Something' and it does not have such sophisticated shape as Testout and I'm pretty sure it will only flower once. Yes, producing a flower at every node is one of its most distinctive features. I still think it looks like 'Manettii' , although I have never seen that growing in the U.K., if it was commonly used as a rootstock here I would have thought it would have been more well known or it would be more common as a found rose.
I have to say how disappointed I am in my fellow British countrymen. We are supposed to have some of the world's best gardens, we are passionate gardeners, we even have a rose as our national flower! Yet our contribution to this website is very tardy at best. In Australia, for example, you have a population of less than London yet you manage to find dozens of incredibly interesting found roses. In two years and just minutes walk away I have found five roses. so over the country as a whole there must be hundreds awaiting discovery if only people bothered and spent a little time and effort.
Reply #19 of 38 posted 13 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Reply #24 of 38 posted 13 days ago by scvirginia
Patricia, can this discussion be moved to the comments section for the new rose record? And, regardless of whether the discussion can be moved, shouldn't the photos be reassigned?

How to proceed?

Reply #20 of 38 posted 13 days ago by scvirginia
I guess the color is too blue-ish for either of the roses I named. Also, they do rebloom, and I'm not sure yours does?

I think Patricia's right, that "Dye Cottage" (or whatever foundling name you'd prefer) should have its own page, so that it can easily be found, and I think (maybe?) that she can move this discussion to the comments section of the new page?

Speaking of the cottage, was this rose planted near the building... as in, could it have been a climber growing on the cottage?

It's certainly a lovely thing, but that doesn't rule out the possibility that it could be a chance seedling. Still, if it suckers a bit, that could explain how a named cultivar might have ended up in the garden of folks without money for plants. That really makes more sense than the leftover rootstock theory, since that implies that someone purchased a grafted plant at some point.

It's a lovely find.

Reply #21 of 38 posted 13 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Thank you Virginia. I'll try and get time to post some more pictures this evening. I might even walk down to the river and take a better picture of Dye Cottage, the rose must have grown for almost a hundred years in dense woodland and probably didn't flower for decades. It was near enough the house to have been climbing on the wall, actually near the front door. Just 100M away across the stream is an old derelict mill. I found 'Paul Ricault' growing there and also a rambler that at first I thought was 'Turner's Crimson', but it is not that. It looks like 'Excelas' but the flowers are bigger and darker. I'll post pictures of that too.
It would be great if 'Dye Cottage Rose' could have its own study page, thank you for that.
It grew those canes all last year but only flowered on them this spring so I am making a bit of a guess about it being once flowering. There are masses of new shoots coming from the base but none from anywhere else except to produce a flower. It could too have been spread around by cuttings too, 'Paul Ricault' and the rambler rose struck very easily.
Reply #22 of 38 posted 13 days ago by scvirginia
You can post your photos here:

Please look it over to see what I've omitted or gotten wrong. If you know more about the cottage itself that might be helpful. You said it was abandoned before WW!, so I gave the date as before 1914, but if you know that it was abandoned well before that...

I don't know if I can move this discussion, but I'll give it a try...

ETA: No, I don't think I can move it.

Reply #23 of 38 posted 13 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
That's great Virginia, thank you.
Reply #25 of 38 posted 13 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
I've posted pictures on the "Dye Cottage Rose" study profile.
Reply #26 of 38 posted 13 days ago by Marlorena
Hi Andrew,

Just wanted to say what a gorgeous rose you found there, and if I might take a guess as to its identity, what struck me when I first saw it was that it looked like a Bourbon rose, and the one closest to it, I think, is 'Bourbon Queen'.... have you considered that at all?... let me know what you or Virginia think about it...

Hi Virginia, hope you're doing o.k. nice to 'see' you here again..
Reply #27 of 38 posted 13 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Hello Marlorena,

I was just thinking today when I was taking the pictures that the stems were like 'Boule de Neige' and yes I think you are right it is very similar to Bourbon Queen', look at this picture from orsola,
Well that solved that little mystery, thank you.
Are you enjoying this warm sunny weather? My roses, and garden in general, have never looked healthier!


Ps. my comments above about the British and roses wasn't aimed at you.
Reply #33 of 38 posted 12 days ago by Marlorena
Hi again Andrew, nice to talk to you, I'm so thrilled about your found rose, and such a romantic and historical location to find it.

I'm also pleased that you think my suggestion maybe close to the mark, and no problem about the British, I couldn't agree more, and I blame t.v. to some extent - gardening programmes now seem terrified to mention roses, you wouldn't think anyone grew them here if your only source was television... they even get a scant mention on the Chelsea Flower Show... It's all about landscaping today I think...

Incidentally, we all grew up in a Cob cottage back in the 50's/60's.. still standing today... most of my family lived there from 1904-1960's... all rather quaint and old worldly...

Yes great year for roses, one of the best I've had.... not much rain about either to spoil the effects...
Enjoy your roses today Andrew, talk again soon..
Reply #31 of 38 posted 12 days ago by scvirginia
Marlorena, you are very clever to see the resemblance to 'Bourbon Queen'.

I was looking at 'Champion of the World' as a possibility, but it is thornless, apparently, so no go there. I hadn't thought of 'Bourbon Queen', though. It is described as having a strong, sweet fragrance, but we all know that fragrance is variable, as is our ability to perceive it, so that's hardly a deal-breaker.

Hope your summer garden is all abloom,
Reply #34 of 38 posted 12 days ago by Marlorena
Hi Virginia... thanks so much, I'm delighted you think I was on the right track..

Roses in full bloom here, I'm almost swamped but I rather like it that way... I hope all is blooming in SC...we miss you at the other place... take care, talk again soon..
Reply #28 of 38 posted 13 days ago by Patricia Routley
Thank you Virginia. The new page for "Dye Cottage Rose" looks good. Andrew, are you happy with the word Rose? I am thinking if there may be another rose found at Dye Cottage later on.
I have tried to move a photo out of this comment and into "Dye Cottage Rose". It was the initial one of the old cottage in the forest.
However, there is a problem which Admin has not quite got to as yet.

(ADMIN - You need to add that image type (eg bloom, leaves, hips) to photos added to comments.)

So...Andrew, I thnk it best if you just re-add your wonderful photos in this comment, direct into "Dye Cottage Rose".
I won't copy and paste all the comments, (thinking here of the doubling up of HelpMeFind's data) but will glean them for pertinent points and add material to "Dye Cottage Rose".
Reply #29 of 38 posted 13 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Thanks so much Patricia, yes just "Dye Cottage" is fine. However I think Marlorena might have solved the identity as 'Bourbon Queen'.
Reply #30 of 38 posted 13 days ago by Patricia Routley
I will respond further in "Dye Cottage Rose".
Reply #32 of 38 posted 12 days ago by scvirginia
Thanks, Patricia- I'd thought that the problem with being able to reassign photos had been fixed, but apparently not. I didn't try it myself, but assume that if you can't, I can't.

Please feel free to "flesh out" the skeleton of the record.

Reply #35 of 38 posted 12 days ago by HMF Admin
Hi Virginia,

The plant photo tab will now include photos which do not have any image type designation but they should be edited to include the appropriate image type attributes.
Reply #36 of 38 posted 12 days ago by scvirginia
Thanks- I've moved the photos, and designated the image types.

Reply #37 of 38 posted 12 days ago by HMF Admin
Thank you for your participation, and patience, on HMF.
Reply #38 of 38 posted 12 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Thank you Virginia and Patricia from me as well.
most recent 17 MAY HIDE POSTS
Initial post 16 MAY by berryp
Hello. I'm looking to include Lime Kiln in a peice of writing i'm doing on the East Anglia area. I'm looking for a contact for it's not working as a link.. i'm trying to get some more info and pictures of lime kiln rosarium. any contacts would be great. thanks
Reply #1 of 2 posted 16 MAY by Marlorena
They have a phone no. listed, have you tried ringing them?..
Reply #2 of 2 posted 17 MAY by Patricia Routley
I've deleted that old link.
most recent 9 MAY SHOW ALL
Initial post 25 APR by Drliz
Hello all
I have just joined this amazing site.
I am researching the Rose ‘Agatha Christie’. This site has been extremely helpful. All my research tells me that both roses have no known parentage. Can anyone give me any reasons why this should be, especially as one of them was bred by Kordes as recently as 1988.
If you know anything else about this Rose - where and when launched etc I would love to know.

Thank you
Reply #1 of 14 posted 25 APR by Kathy Strong's Del Cerro Garden
well, for the Kordes rose, Kordes considers its breeding program to be proprietary information, and it chooses not to share parentage info for any of its roses. So it's not surprising that no public info exists. If you have a specific reason for wanting this rose's background, maybe you could write to Kordes and ask them to make an exception on that basis.
Reply #2 of 14 posted 25 APR by Andrew from Dolton
Agatha Christie's former home, Greenway, is not far from where I live.
Reply #4 of 14 posted 25 APR by Drliz
Andrew - I have no idea where this is. I know she was born in Devon and died in Oxfordshire. Miss Marple grew roses but did Agatha Christie herself?!
Reply #5 of 14 posted 25 APR by Andrew from Dolton
I'm not sure if she grew roses but she certainly gardened, the National Trust now manage the house and very nice garden. I have visited a couple of times but not recently. The rose was named ten years before Christie's death. The house is near Dartmouth in Devon in the south-west of England (the bit at the bottom below Wales that sticks out into the Atlantic).
Reply #6 of 14 posted 26 APR by Drliz
Thank you very much for all this info’ especially the National Trust reference. I am a member of the NT and had no idea of Greenway existence. I have had a good read of the website and have emailed them about roses. Mind you until recently I knew little about Agatha Christie. Greenway is on my list of places to visit ; I can only be about 50 miles East. Thank you again. Happy gardening.
Reply #7 of 14 posted 26 APR by Marlorena
I've also been to Greenway quite a few times, as I used to live nearby, and could walk there, but always in Spring when the Camellias are in bloom, in fact it will look great right about now. I have a Camellia I got solely after seeing it at Greenway...
No idea about roses there, I don't recall seeing any, but I wasn't looking for them at that time of year..
It's most picturesque along the river, and you can see several places Christie included in her books..
The house is also full of interest.. do try and get there if you can, it's rather lovely all around that area in fact..
Reply #8 of 14 posted 27 APR by Andrew from Dolton
Marlorena and Liz, do you fancy meeting up at Mottisfont at mid-summer?
Reply #10 of 14 posted 27 APR by Marlorena
Andrew... thanks so much for that invitation, that's so thoughtful and friendly, and I would really be up for that except my home commitments are such that it prevents me leaving town these days... I do have a NT property nearby with roses, so I'm not totally without a garden to visit, but Mottisfont is incomparable. Perhaps another time, I do hope so...

I hope Liz can make it...or that you both at least get to Greenway again...
Reply #12 of 14 posted 27 APR by Andrew from Dolton
I have tried to get to Mottisfont on several occasions but rather like you there have been commitments in Devon, family commitments in Sussex or boring stuff like work and it has not been possible. I have a significant birthday in June and I said to my partner it will be a special present to myself to visit and we must clear all schedules at the height of the rose season and go. If you manage to go sometime in the future and want a fellow rose maniac to accompany you as well please let me know or if you are ever near RHS Rosemoor I'm only 10 minutes away. I shall take loads of pictures and post them on HMF so at least you can see a little of how beautiful it will be.
Reply #13 of 14 posted 28 APR by Marlorena
Andrew, I can't wait to see the photos that you will be taking, and yes of course if I'm ever down that way I would love to meet up and visit Rosemoor, it was one of my favourite gardens when I lived in Brixham, along with Greenway. Knightshayes Court was another I remember..
Do have a lovely time in June, won't be long now. I shall hope that it's not raining for you on the day, it so often is at that time, but I've been there in the rain and somehow it doesn't seem to matter..
Reply #14 of 14 posted 9 MAY by Drliz
I am sorry I did not get back to you Andrew. I have finished my research on Agatha Christie and roses; the reason I logged into Help Me Find. I am sure I will use it again in future research. I went to Mottisfont last year; it is well worth a visit, so go if you can. As a Rose enthusiast and writer you may be interested in my library at Have a good summer with your roses.
Reply #9 of 14 posted 27 APR by Drliz
Thank you Marlorena.; you make it sound great. My interest is roses rather than Agatha Christie but I am getting involved with her more by the day. I have even ordered two of her books, which involve roses of course!
Reply #11 of 14 posted 27 APR by Marlorena
I hope you enjoy those books Liz... I missed the recent Ordeal By Innocence, on the t.v. and I admit to still enjoying the old Miss Marple films with Margaret Rutherford, even though Miss Christie did not approve apparently..
I did thoroughly enjoy 'And Then There Were None' which was on a couple of years ago, I thought that was just brilliant and had me on the edge of my seat...

Sometimes I think I've been 'poisoned' with roses, but fortunately it's more of a relaxant..
Reply #3 of 14 posted 25 APR by Drliz
Thank you very much for this information; I was unaware of this. I have emailed them but so far no response.
Best wishes
most recent 2 MAY HIDE POSTS
Initial post 1 MAY by Andrew from Dolton
" Small, very double, globular bloom form.", I don't think that description is very accurate.
Reply #1 of 3 posted 1 MAY by HubertG
It sounds more like a description of 'Semperflorens', in my photograph below.
Reply #2 of 3 posted 1 MAY by Marlorena
Definitely not Andrew... I grow it as 'Bengal Crimson' and it's never anything like that..
Reply #3 of 3 posted 2 MAY by Andrew from Dolton
Indeed Marlorena, I grow it too and the flowers are always single with lax and floppy petals not globular or double.
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