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Organic Roses-Honeybee Garden
most recent 30 APR 18 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 29 APR 18 by Organic Roses-Honeybee Garden
Love the strong fragrance of this rose but be warned - for those who want repeat-bloom this is NOT a rose to get. It is extremely vigorous, extremely thorny and one of the true BS-resistant roses.....One magnificent Spring flush - The rest of the year - I call 4-5 blooms "non-existent" repeat, lol. Mine is now 6 years old, not a single BS splotch to be seen..... Those who got repeat bloom, I am jealous!!!
Reply #1 of 5 posted 29 APR 18 by Patricia Routley
Does your soil have a natural supply of potash? If it is deficient in this nutrient, you might not get as many blooms.
Reply #2 of 5 posted 29 APR 18 by Organic Roses-Honeybee Garden
not sure about potash but might as well throw in some extra banana peels in it to encourage to repeat, but on the other hand, this rose is too vigorous and I don't want it to get bigger than it already is! lol! and when it does have a flush, massive clusters of bloom.I just think its genes are the issue. My Cornelia was this way as well. Just one massive Spring flush the rest awkward end of the tips blooms. But Laguna compared to Cornelia even worse for amount of re-bloom blossoms. It's also a bit dangerous to "train" Laguna too - so that is another warning for rose growers. I wanted thorns to keep away rabbits, haha, and boy do I need plated armor to deal with that thing! Do you have this rose? it's not listed in your plant selection? Would be curious if you had decent repeat bloom! Go ahead and comment if you had good re-bloom that way other gardeners can reference.
Reply #3 of 5 posted 30 APR 18 by Patricia Routley
Sorry, 'Laguna' never came my way.
Reply #4 of 5 posted 30 APR 18 by Jay-Jay
You're back in sight/back on the site after a long time of retreat!
Reply #5 of 5 posted 30 APR 18 by Organic Roses-Honeybee Garden
Lol, Jay great to see you again. I missed your wonderful passion for roses and also a few of the dedicated organics folks! One has gotten so frustrated with some of the vindictive pesticide-advocating personalities on rose forums that she withdrew. It is such a shame, because she has so much valuable and wonderful insight, experience and thoughts about roses. For myself, on the other hand, I changed professions and have to travel a LOT to NYC so have nightmare/high-pressure deadlines! Will PM to make sure your email has not changed! Hope everything is going WONDERFUL for you this season! Cheers to all who remain gentle, loving, and organics-concerned. We need those folks in these terrible times. The U.S. is not heading in a good direction, and the environment is being severely impacted and damaged. Off-the-record, I am filled with dread and sadness with the regard to the latter.
most recent 26 MAR 18 SHOW ALL
Initial post 24 JUN 08 by Jocelen
In 1914 the breeders of this rose sent the following description to the 'Journal des Roses':

"Arbuste très florifère et vigoureux, fleur de jolie forme, rose violace clair; bouton allongé d'un superbe coloris nankin-rougeâtre luisant; pétales extérieurs nuancés de rose violace à onglet jaune safran."
A purplish light pink flower, elongated bud of a superb nankin-red colour, shiny; outside petals purplish pink with a saffron yellow base.

In my opinion this is challenging the 'Clementina Carbonieri' as we know it today, which is, I think, probably wrongly identified.
Reply #1 of 5 posted 29 JUN 08 by Unregistered Guest
In our climate C.C . is a mix of colors--pink, red, orange and yellow. No hint even of purple. Our plant, incidentally , is from Italy, where it was bred. If what we have is an impostor, wonder what it could be?
Reply #2 of 5 posted 22 OCT 08 by Maurizio Usai
I wonder if our "Clementina" could be, in fact, the same rose we know as 'Isabelle Nabonnand', a rose largely grown in the Riviera as "Nonna Censy"...

Does anyone have any opinion about....?
Reply #3 of 5 posted 18 NOV 08 by Gartenjockels kleine gaerten
hello maurizio.

clementina carbonieri, isabelle nabonnand and even souvenir de gilbert nabonnand are very similar, indeed.
i received them from different sources: cc/beales, in/ loubert, sdgn/frenchtearoses. they showed same bloomcolours all over the season, getting darker and of a more vivid red shading in hotter times.
the leaves also shared the same characteristics: elongated elliptical, prominent tip, coarse and wide serrations, margins slightly ondulated, impressed second veins, of medium stoutness.
contemporary descriptions told the blossoms being semidouble which surely doesn't match the plants in question.
so what...? no idea which of the three it is.
for further observations, especially for bud, receptacle and pedicel, i must attend new season.
best wishes
kai-eric schwarz
Reply #4 of 5 posted 26 APR 12 by Organic Roses-Honeybee Garden
Hmmm, what I think happened is a translation subtlety. Violace can actually mean an intense mauve pink and it could also refer to how Clementina starts out as an open bud. Indeed mine is a very hot neon mauve violet-pink if this makes sense. Mine is not red, but hot mauve.

My Clementina Carbonieri is very young but I noticed all the photos of it on HMF show a very short, stubby plant. HMF photos and my specific plant also show a far more sparse and outwardly branching habit (like the forking of a tree branch) Isabelle Nabonnand on the other hand, show a much taller, far more bushier plant on HMF. However, both have the same snaking bloom neck, same leaf shape, so perhaps they must somehow be related. Often this seems to happen with a lot of hybridizers when their rose picks up the same characteristics of the dominant parent and they are working within the same strain of plant.... Example, there are countless pink and cream striped roses constantly being developed that it's sometimes hard to tell one from another....

Finally I noticed that HMF photos consistently show Clementina as having very small flowers, whereas with Isabelle, often the blooms are significantly larger by comparison.

The final clue, I took a look at Souvenir de Gilbert Nabonnand and I'm thinking noooo way! Souvenir de Gilbert Nabonnand is MASSIVE from the photos on HMF. (Ref link: ) The base of the rose is like tree trunks lol! and the canes exceptionally stout. The flowers are even more enlarged in size...Maybe what happened is the originating plant was Clementina, then others started to refine it for a larger bush size to Isabelle and finally Souvenir d.G. Nabonnand was bred so that it would serve better as large hedge or "shrub" rose.....???? Again these are just wild guesses on my part. But IMHO, Souvenire de Gilbert Nabonnand's is unlike both Clementina Carbonieri and Isabelle Nabonnand in terms of just the size and the growth habit.
Reply #5 of 5 posted 26 MAR 18 by WarGar
My Clementina Carbonieri sprawls quite a bit and throws longish canes. I thought that was due to it being planted on the east side of my house (morning sun only) and for several years shaded additionally by a large hydrangea, since removed. I have avoiding pruning it severely due to my understanding that Teas dislike hard pruning. Perhaps it is time to attempt to tame it! My General Gallieni, nearby, is being swamped by the older (in terms of when it was planted in my garden) Clementina Carbonieri. Flowers of CC look as portrayed most commonly in photos, so either it's CC or something similar.
most recent 1 DEC 17 SHOW ALL
Initial post 26 MAY 05 by Jean Marion
I usually only have PM on a couple of roses... this year Distant Drums is covered from head to toe in blackspot. Very unusual for this locale. Had to shovel prune, although there is not another rose that looks quite like it out there...
Reply #1 of 9 posted 26 MAY 05 by Terre
Hello Decobug,
Can you tell me if your Distant Drums was grafted or an own-root plant? I test roses and have found the own-root Buck roses are far hardier than the grafted form. In fact, I don't know why the industry insists on putting hardy Buck roses on a graft. A breeder explained this rose was susceptible to disease as an own-root as a reason for the graft. Your experience makes it sound like that did not improve it's chances.
Thank you, Terre Ashmore
Reply #2 of 9 posted 26 SEP 11 by Organic Roses-Honeybee Garden
Terre, I have an own-root Distant Drums and it is exceptionally tiny and fragile. It keeps shedding and regrowing leaves at the exact same interval, hence its inabilty to get any larger. I call it a Bonsai rose....It is already in its 2nd year in my garden and it never grows beyond 11" tall and 6" wide, lol! But I would never SP it because of its fast rebloom and the flowers are consistently lovely....It is growing in a 4' long pot. The exact same sized pot that all my huge climbers grow separately in, but the climbers flourish and grow to the Max! Not so with Bonsai Distant Drums...

On the other hand, the grafted versions I've seen at a nearby all-organics city garden are grafted Distant Drums which are short and stubby 2'8" bushes. 2'8" is far better than my 11", lol!
Reply #3 of 9 posted 26 SEP 11 by Rupert, Kim L.
My old Arena budded plant grows in half day sun in Newhall, Ca in my youngest sister's back yard. It gets watered by the sprinklers and rain, is never sprayed nor even fertilized and it remains about three and a half feet tall by nearly as wide. This is an intensely fragrant, beautifully odd colored rose but definitely not a strong, robust grower in many areas of the country. Much like BUCblue, Blue Skies and Silver Shadows, Dr. Buck selected it for the flower color, NOT the health and vigor of the plant. He'd written he felt like Henry could have a rose in any color as long as it was pink. These were such dramatic departures from his body of work, he introduced them. There are MUCH better Buck roses to be had, but the vast majority are PINK.
Reply #4 of 9 posted 30 NOV 17 by mamabotanica
Kim do you think in Pasadena ca that an own root distant drums would do ok? I have a spot saved for it at the dimensions listed (about 4x4) and am hoping it gets that size.just ordered it as own root because my local Armstrong (aren't all of their roses grafted?) won't have it for months.
Reply #5 of 9 posted 30 NOV 17 by Rupert, Kim L.
As long as it isn't cooked by being too close to any hardscape and too long, too continuous very hot sun; is grown in decent soil and provided regular feeding and watered appropriately, it should grow acceptably. Of course, being set back by regular Chilli Thrip attacks is going to stunt its performance, so keeping as "on top" of them as you can will help. And, I would definitely dis bud it, prevent it from flowering much, until it achieves something close to what you want. The more wood and foliage the plant has, the greater the momentum to grow. You should also do what you can to encourage new basal growth so when you prune (which should probably be sparingly, until it's larger), more new growth is generated to maintain its size. Good luck!
Reply #6 of 9 posted 30 NOV 17 by mamabotanica
Thanks much! I really appreciate all the info- esp to stay on top of thrips. Recently bought a sprayer and some deadbug juice just for that!
Reply #7 of 9 posted 30 NOV 17 by Rupert, Kim L.
You're welcome! Good luck! Thank heavens I don't have them here. When they arrive, I'm done. That's too much work and too much exposure to chemicals I simply won't expose myself, pets and loved ones to. See if the own root plant works and whether it does or not, pick up a budded one when they are available. I think seeing the two close to each other will teach you much about the benefits of budding, particularly with weaker varieties.
Reply #8 of 9 posted 1 DEC 17 by Robert Neil Rippetoe
Kim, Tom Carruth told me they were coming and yes, they are finally here.

It took me a few months to figure out what was happening. They seem to like some varieties much better than others. You KNOW I won't spray!!

I figure it will be a good opportunity to concentrate on breeding THRIP resistant varieties??

Looking online it seems there are a fair number of natural predators.

I had problems for years with Mites until a natural balance was established. Hopefully they same will hold true with our new friends the Chilli Thrip.

Life does go on. R-
Reply #9 of 9 posted 1 DEC 17 by Rupert, Kim L.
Ouch, I'm sorry, Robert! Yes, that would permit you to see what resists them. I guess that's one sliver of a silver lining.
most recent 15 APR 17 SHOW ALL
Initial post 15 MAY 07 by John Moody
I have ordered this from Pickering for a second time. I ordered it last year and the bush just barely broke dormancy and then just quickly died. Two other roses I ordered on that order never broke dormancy at all and just dried up and died as well.
My question for those that grow this rose is how vigorously it breaks dormancy each spring and how vigorously it grows as a whole?? I love the orange blend blooms and the pictures that I see of it.
Reply #1 of 7 posted 13 APR 12 by Organic Roses-Honeybee Garden
John??? I noticed you wrote wayyyy back in May 07...don't know if you've given up on this rose yet, but I have two coming in. Both are own-root though!!!! If you are still interested I will keep you updated. Now that you've warned me about Troika and how it has a hard time establishing, I'll be sure to pamper them with my favorite organic fertilizer Gardenville. When I had more money I used to feed all my babies once a week with super diluted Gardenville and the roses explode in size.

Intensely fragrant orange blend, classically spiralling HTs are very difficult to find. Folklore looks very much like Troika - it is a prolific very abundant bloomer and vigorous even though it keeps shedding from BS, lol! But Troika I've been dying to have.....Can't wait to compare Folklore versus Troika....
Reply #2 of 7 posted 20 APR 12 by John Moody
My Royal Dane is now doing wonderfully.
In fact it has already bloomed this year about a month ahead of schedule. I love it's beautiful color, vigorous growth, disease resistance, and spicy rosey fragrance. I don't even do any winter protection for it and it comes back every year strong and hardy.
This is a really good rose.
Reply #3 of 7 posted 20 APR 12 by Organic Roses-Honeybee Garden
Hurrrayyyy! thanks for your reply, John! I'm so thrilled - disease resistance, lol! I did not expect that from a very fragrant HT. Prolific very fragrant HTs usually get tons of BS, so usually I always have some sort of psychological preparation, haha! I'm happy to hear that it still keeps its beautiful fragrance, and is indeed disease-resistant like its original ratings. Winter hardy is an added plus....
Reply #4 of 7 posted 24 APR 12 by John Moody
Yes, disease resistance is indeed a big goodie for this beauiful, fragrant, vigorous, and winter hardy rose for me. Last year I was only able to spray fungicide one time because of health issues and it was on of the best a staying clean while it's neighbors were spotting. This odd weather spring I had a bit of mildew show up here and there--mostly mini and mini-flora and just a couple of big roses, but Royal Dane\Troika didn't participate in any of that.
And, this rose will set wonderful hips for those who hybriyze like myself which is another plus in my book.
Like I said, this is a great rose to have around.
Reply #5 of 7 posted 3 JUL 12 by Organic Roses-Honeybee Garden
John, you are so right about the fragrance and oh, the color is drop-dead gorgeous! I have had 2 very beautiful classically spiraling blooms, and I'm sure the number will increase with the age of the plant, but even as a baby, the flowers are huge!!!! So far it's one of my top favorite roses. I also told my rosie friend in Romania that Troika does really well even in the blasting heat! Now the breaking point is when it's over 100 degree weather but at 99 degrees, Troika holds real well, lol! However, since I'm completely no-spray, all-organics, the true test of disease-resistance will come at 3 years of age. Three years show the true nature of how good the rose does against disease. In Organics garden, I've had pristine roses for 2 years, but as soon as the 3rd year marker comes along, that's when things can start to fall apart, lol! Troika still has a good 2 more years before the true test begins. I will update when it hits its 3rd year anniversary.
Reply #7 of 7 posted 15 APR 17 by Zavos.Brachides
How is Troika doing by now? Any deseases?
Reply #6 of 7 posted 8 OCT 12 by mtspace
I just wanted to thank you for your report on Royal Dane. Missouri is not the easiest place to grow roses; so ones that grow well there should have broad geographic interest.
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