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Kim Rupert 
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I refuse to buy a rose named Ketchup and Mustard! Please please please - roses are elegant and should be named that way. It looks like a beautiful rose, but with that name all I can see is a hot dog --- and I'm a VEGETARIAN! ;)
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But, might not those condiments also be appropriate for a veggie burger? As for "elegance" in rose names, you're forgetting ones such as "Happy Butt" , "Sweet Revenge" and "Crazy Dottie". Nothing "elegant" about those and there are many, many more.
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Many many wrongs don't make a right! ;)
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"Tofu" included! LOL!
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That's what happens, when the rose naming is done before the lunch. :)
I am with DonaldQuRoses on this one though, it is a very no-awe inspiring rose name.
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#5 of 29 posted
8 FEB 12 by
Jay-Jay
Piccalilly....oh I'm sorry.... Piccadilly is in the parentage too! (and Peace off course!)
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#6 of 29 posted
9 FEB 12 by
Seil
I don't let the names bother me too much any more. If the rose is lovely I don't really care what the breeder decided to name it. There are too many really gorgeous roses that are named after politicians and so called "stars" that, except for their names, I want. So I just buy what I like and to heck with the names. Unless you exhibit and need to have the correct "Approved Exhibition Name" (AEN) if you find a rose you really love with a name you hate just buy the rose and pick your own name for it! Whose gonna know or care?
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I've honestly bought many over the years simply due to the name. At the "entrance" to my old desert garden, as it bordered a private golf course in a planned community, I planted Buck's "Hi Neighbor" as the greeting to the garden, though I honestly don't like the rose. I planted Hiroshima's Children next to Pearl Harbor. All of the "booze" inspired were planted together in "the bar". Tequilla Sunrise, Champagne Cocktail, Courvoisier and a number of others named for either alcohol or drinks were "tended" there.
I grew many which were named for notable, strong, intelligent women, Marian Anderson, Madame Chiang Kai-shek and others, held their court together. Though I've never grown it, The Wife of Bath is probably one I should as Bath's Wife was a formidable woman for her time!
The names don't have to be elegant to have meaning. Personally, I think the British have the best idea from a marketing standpoint. Name them for special occasions, making them the perfect gift for each one. I would add support for "catchy" names such as Eyes for You as it's actually lyrical, "I only have eyes, for you..." I think women's names are a sure bet to make them marketable, too. How many times have you at least been tempted to buy a rose (or other plant) to honor someone because it was their name? Believe me, it can be a very emotional moment! I planted a fuchsia in a friend's garden I'd found, which bore her name. She called to tell me how much she loved it. I asked if she'd red the tag. She returned, exclaiming, "it's MY name!" The next time I saw them, her husband came up to me, wrapped his arm around my shoulder, looked me in the eye and said, "Ya made my girl cry!" I apologized and asked if that was a good thing. He winked and said, "Thanks!" I thought it very sweet after forty years of marriage.
Why must only minis get the catchy, "cutsie" names? At least Ketchup and Mustard FITS the coloring of the rose and doesn't gag me like names such as "Angel Face". Argh!
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#8 of 29 posted
9 FEB 12 by
Seil
Oh, I too have bought my share strictly because of the name. At one time I had one for each member of my family except my brother Alan. He was very disappointed because we just couldn't find any rose named Alan.
And I confess I like the cutsie names! I bought Tattooed Lady because the name just tickled me and I don't even have a tattoo. Once I got the rose I found the name really does fit the look of the rose too. I love the name "White Pearl in Red Dragon's Mouth" and wish I could grow it here. "Tipsy Imperial Concubine" Is another great one.
For my money I hope breeders don't all decide to get all serious and only use "elegant" names. I hope they continue to come up with fun and sometimes intriguing names. My brother dubbed one of my seedlings out of What a Peach, "Son of a Peach" and I like it, lol!
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Tom Carruth told the story of a peach colored moss mini he created some years ago. The naming was a collaborative effort in the office. One of the marketing people suggested the name they went with, Peach Fuzz, and then from then on, he checked to see how "his rose" was doing. I agree with you about cute names. I've been accused of using "quirky" names. Perhaps. I'm still looking for just the right seedling to name, "Tequilla Mockingbird"!
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#10 of 29 posted
9 FEB 12 by
Seil
Lol, I love it, Kim! I think it would need to be yellow and orange stripes myself.
I'll bet that naming that rose Peach Fuzz gave that worker the feeling he had a vested interest in the rose so he wanted to keep track of it.
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I'm sure of it. Can you imagine how exciting it was for him to go home and tell his family HE named their new rose, then share such a clever name with them?
I love the stories behind them such as the ones for Just Joey and Hi. They're cute and real. I really must retaliate for Angel Face and name one "Kissie Face"!
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#12 of 29 posted
9 FEB 12 by
Jay-Jay
We grow Warm Wishes at our front door; not for the name, (that's a bonus) but for the colour. But my wifes taste altered and this autumn we'll plant there brighter and smaller roses: Tintinara. We'll keep the W.W. and plant them elsewhere in the garden.
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Hm I normally do not buy a rose because of the name, although some are a nice bonus (like Jude the Obscure, Distant Drums, A Whiter Shade of Pale or Alchemist).
I wish there was more naming based on a literature/movie characters than the real people. To give a well know example, a name Princess Leia would say more than a name Carrie Fisher, an actress who played her in the SW saga, or Arwen Evenstar would say more than Liv Tyler, who played her in LoTR.
I have a fair share of the obligatory real "ladies" in the garden, and most of them leave me rather cold and uninterested when I Google up who their were.
I am not all that fond of the "Captain Obvious is obvious" names either, like Pink Beauty, Pink Angel, Pink Cover, etc. There is zero imagination and poetry in that. Could as well be named a Pink Zombie (or Pink Zombina, to follow a generic femininity of the rose names). x)
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Agreed, but naming a rose for a "celebrity" is a two edged sword. You'll have those who will buy it FOR the connection and many who won't buy it BECAUSE of it. Naming them for politicians, particularly here in the US is now certain death for a rose in most cases. Austin was very wise to choose Shakespeare to name some of his earlier roses for, but even those can have negative connotations. You'd have to be very careful to obtain permission (often with financial considerations involved) to use modern fictional character names. Not that you'd want to, but imagine what it might cost for permission to call a rose "Shrek"!
Ironically, it's the "zombie" type names you dislike which sell best, at least in this country. They have no negative associations with people or behaviors, are easily remembered, and possess enough of a positive and descriptive element to remain 'commercial' for decades without any special social or political knowledge of a particular time required to understand their names. Warren Millington, an Australian breeder, has a real knack for coming up with amusing, entertaining, descriptive, memorable names. You should check his out. I think you'd enjoy them.
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Hehe Natural Blonde and Social Butterfly are definitely names to remember. :)
Regarding the naming though, the copyright issue is rather complicated. In general you cannot copyright the names (imagine a hassle if someone called their child Shrek, and if then someone wanted to call a rose after mister Shrek Smith). There are fine lines with it of course and the various institutional demands, and in general it is less stressful not to pick the obvious unique naming. However, the trick is to pick the less obvious cultural references, like for example a common phrase "At least we don't sparkle" is a direct reference to the movie saga Twilight, however you cannot pin a copyright to this kind of cultural reference, because it is too generic, although identifiable phrase. :)
Said that, my generation probably will be garden marketing viable only in a few decades, so I am rather curious how that will change the generic naming trends. :)
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Those are funny! A few years ago, J&P introduced two climbers, High Society and Social Climber. Of course, I liked the second one a lot better, both for size, color, health and definitely the name! Ralph Moore named a striped seedling, Two Timer, and a mutual friend went absolutely ballistic as her ex husband was one!
In 1927 there was a HT named, with permission, for the industrialist, Henry Ford. Twenty-seven years later, his permission was once again asked to name a rose for him, which he refused. The creator actually found another gentleman named Henry Ford and obtained HIS permission to name the rose for him, though the public never knew it.
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lol, Social Climber sounds like a perfect name for a rose that tends to escape to the neighbors garden, you know, to socialize (and steal their sunlight). :)
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Actually, that's more High Society around here. It's a much larger climber. Social Climber is quite happy in a 20" pot on a friend's patio, growing happily into her lattice covering. In the open ground, it's usually less than 10' high, making it perfect for the common wrought iron fencing in newer communities. It's healthy, vigorous, fairly heavily flowering in a nice color and large flowers. Pretty much the perfect climber for smaller areas which can't handle a barn eater.
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The name Ketchup & Mustard doesn't bother me, but certain first ladies are not allowed in my garden because of their husbands' sins. I recently broke down and bought JACsegra, I feel terrible giving money to that institution's agenda, but I bought it end of the season discounted 50% off, so hopefully the money didn't get into their coffers. I refuse to call JACsegra by its exhibition name, totally creeps me out.
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I understand your sentiments, but is that one really any more offensive than any of these? JACbush, AROnance, JACorbet, JACtanre, JACurnam, JACgray. None of these have ever, nor will ever, grow in my garden.
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I find all of them equally offensive, but thankfully, the ones you listed are mediocre roses that are as odious as their namesakes. JACsegra is an excellent rose by all accounts and I like the color too. It's a shame I can't find Karen Blixen sold anywhere, because I'd rather have bought that as a lesser evil.
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#22 of 29 posted
23 MAR 16 by
Jay-Jay
Karen Blixen is a rather nice rose in my opinion, but doesn't perform that well. Really good performers are Ingrid Bergman and Ambiente. Pumping out flowers all season long, in contrary to Karen Blixen. Parole is a very good-one too, with huge well formed flowers and as a bonus a very good scent!!!
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#23 of 29 posted
24 MAR 16 by
Raynyk
It's almost a bit embarrasing but I'm a sucker for the romantic sound of the old french roses, Souvenir de la Malmaison, Madame Legras de St. Germain, Ghislaine de Feligonde, Belle Sans Flatterie etc. I usually don't read up on the history of the names, or the persons and places behind it as it's mostly a letdown. But if I would have two equal roses and one of them is named Pink Sweetie and the other Souvenir de la Reine de Senteur I always go for the later one. A bit silly maybe and I'm not even frenchspeaking.
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Spot on with the names Kim, I am so tired of the sappy valentines day cliche names. They need something edgier, we have way too many boring rose names.
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#24 of 29 posted
7 APR 17 by
a_carl76
I believe I found this rose being sold at a big box store here in Iowa in the bag with sawdust under the name of "Gold and Fire". Isn't it sad that I think this name is better. It isn't blooming yet but the description does seem to fit so I bought it to see if it really is. I also found that they are selling Tropical Lightening as Climbing Lightening. Unlike many other places, the bagged roses at this place are usually correctly labeled and I was willing to shell out the $3.99 to test it out.
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There are three historic daffodils from the 1820s, I believe, named 'Butter and Eggs', 'Eggs and Bacon' and 'Codlins and Cream'. So, K&M may someday seem merely quaint--those silly early 21stC Americans you know--, and the name is at least a welcome change from the Romance Novel Soft Core Porn school of marketing. The rose seems very handsome, but I wonder how it might perform in a cold climate. Can anyone compare it with 'Kleopatra', which I think has similar coloring?
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Dianthus 'Sops in Wine' is older still.
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I bought it BECAUSE of the name, I am so incredibly tired of the boring bourgeois hallmark lovey dovey names I could die lol......it seems like the rose industry is really missing an opportunity to make some of the roses more interesting just by naming this something better that goofy valentines day cliche names.
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#29 of 29 posted
yesterday by
HubertG
I don't particularly like the name but that could be because the word ketchup really isn't in my vocabulary. In Australia this rose might have been more appropriately called 'Tomato Sauce & Mustard', but that just isn't catchy enough. Our mustard isn't normally that yellow either. ;-) I don't like the modern practice of renaming roses in different countries in principle preferring the original name, unless it's terrible, but one advantage of that practice is if you don't like the name you can privately call it by one of the others. I dislike the name 'Dee-Lish' and thankfully that rose is sold in Australia as 'Forget Me Not' but I'd think it would have still done well here with the original name 'Line Renaud'. So of one silly name, one sappy name and the original name of someone who isn't well-known here, I'd still prefer the original, but at least I can choose. I doubt many people in Australia knew that Peter Frankenfeld was a German comedian but that didn't stop it from become popular. A really good rose with a not-so-good name will still sell given time. My personal peeve in rose naming is using an exclamation mark. Please stop that! It's just so silly!
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Who knows where I can get a start of californica? I have seen the nurseries listed, but they are out of the country. I can't import it. There has to be somebody who grows this species in the country. Or has some seeds to trade :)
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I will add it to the list, Jason. I have the R. Californica they selected to grow in the Historic Sacramento Cemetery in Sacramento, Ca. There are suckers exiting the bottom of the container and it needs cleaning up, anyway.
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I was going to say there are many variations on rosa californica. I have one also that is probably not the one the good folks in Sacto "selected." What I have is one I got originally from the Native plants nursery on the outskirts of San Juan Capistrano called Tree of Life Nursery. They also have Rosa minutifolia, which you would probably also like. However, since you don't say where you are, I guess there are two options here -- come get a piece of mine in San Diego, or drive on out Highway 74 in San Juan Capistrano if that is closer. Or get Kim's.
ps Forestfarms.com in Oregon is another good place to get most species roses, but I don't see californica on their list at the moment. It might be too common for them.
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I'm actually currently in San Diego! I would love to come and get a piece of some minutifolia and/or some californica! Email me and I'll give you my cell phone number :).
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Well then, I should probably also invite you to the San Diego Rose Society meeting tomorrow night, Monday, June 18, at which our topic will be hybridizing roses. Come one, come all, 7 pm at Casa Del Prado, room 101, in Balboa Park. If you haven't been there before, it's across the street from the museum of natural history and next door to the junior theater bldg.
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No way! That's fantastic! I'm so excited! I have been obsessively reading about roses for weeks now. And now you say you have the rose I am looking for and you have it miraculously here in the place I am visiting next to the rose garden that I love to visit and I get to attend a rose group meeting tommorow night! Pinch me. I will be there.
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Californica's foliage smells so nice! I have seen it at Walter Anderson nursery but it was in bad shape and it did not have fragrant foliage and someone bought it. I also saw it in someone's garden. It had beautiful lilac flowers. I was mesmerized. But Kathy gave me a sucker from her yard. I really like because it has very fragrant foliage. It has a very woodsy piney smell to it. I am so happy to have it. I feel like I have something no one else has.
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#8 of 14 posted
20 JUN 18 by
Tessie
I would suggest you get R. californica 'First Dawn'. It is a selection of the species by Suncrest Nurseries. They don't sell direct to the public but many nurseries can get their plants.
The two selections of the species I grow are First Dawn and Los Berros. First Dawn is the better one by far IMHO. It blooms prolifically and repeatedly while Los Berros only lightly blooms with almost no repeat (it is also a water hog). First Dawn blooms in huge sprays and is extremely fragrant. The foliage has a mild to moderate peppery scent. Sets abundant hips with plenty of seeds. Not very thorny (Los Berros is loaded with thorns and prickles). Both are shade tolerant. First Dawn will climb with support. It is blooming now. I'm not sure there are any hips at present as birds like them.
Rancho Santa Ana Botanic Garden grows R. californica from different parts of the state. I've seen all their other selections. They also grow First Dawn and Los Berros where I bought mine. First Dawn is my favorite but my second favorite one is a plant from San Diego County. It is very nice. The RSABG nursery is closed for the summer. However, earlier this year they did have available in the nursery R. californica grown from their own stock. Unfortunately I didn't note which one.
Melissa
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#10 of 14 posted
3 days ago by
Mandy Luu
Hi Tessie,
I have been trying to get a First dawn for many years now but couldn't. I first read about from your post on the Houzz. From reading your comments of how fragrant it is and it wafts, I wanted one. I actually drove with my sister to the Rancho...but at the time they only had the Rosa californica without the First dawn so I assumed it was not the cultivar. Anyway the two plants were very thorn and the one survived hardly had any flowers.
Once a while I came across your post like this one again, and it stirred my wanting longing to get one. Sigh...I don't know why it is so hard to get one.
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#11 of 14 posted
3 days ago by
Tessie
Hi Mandy Luu. It is Suncrest Nurseries that selected R. californica 'First Dawn'. They sell it to retail nurseries, so if you have a local retail nursery, you can ask them to get one (or two!) for you from Suncrest. As Suncrest doesn't sell direct to the public.
The Rancho Santa Ana Botanic Garden has changed its name to the California Botanic Garden. They grow 'First Dawn' on the grounds and periodically sell it in their on site Grow Native Nursery. Grow Native Nursery publishes an availability list which is updated every week on Thursday in the late afternnoon. The nursery is about to close for the summer on June 22. The current availability list doesn't have 'First Dawn' on it but as a matter of fact I bought another one from them last year. You can write to Grow Native Nursery and ask about 'First Dawn' at this address: gnnclaremont@calbg.org. Perhaps if you request it, they might make it available in the fall plant sale which is when they reopen after summer hiatus. The staff at GNN are really nice and helpful.
Melissa
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#14 of 14 posted
3 days ago by
Mandy Luu
Yes, I know Suncrest is the one that introduced it. I emailed and called them a few years back, but they told me at the time they didn't have any. Kim just told me that they have some currently. I will ask my local nursey to get me one. Thank you.
Mandy
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#12 of 14 posted
3 days ago by
Tessie
I have a habit of keeping pots with plant ID on them. And sure enough I found the one for the Rosa californica 'First Dawn' that I bought from CalBG's Grow Native Nursery last year. Kind of grubby but legible. Sure enough, from the code 'CBG' on the pot, they grew it rather than buying one from another nursery.
I haven't posted here for so long I've forgotten how to include a photo in my post.......
Melissa
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#13 of 14 posted
3 days ago by
Mandy Luu
Hi Melissa,
Thank you for your reply. The plants I bought didn't have the First dawn following the Rosa californica. I called and emailed them before but never got any response. My wanting this First dawn started from reading your posts on Houzz. I have read your posts many times, and every time I read them, I started my search for First dawn again. ????. From what I have read on your posts, I really like your rose selections. I think your garden must be so beautiful.
Thank you again for your response.
Mandy
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#9 of 14 posted
20 JUN 18 by
Tessie
I forgot to mention that Annie's Annuals grows a R. californica with good rebloom. Checking Annie's tonight finds that it is not in production. You could write and ask about it though. Here is the page for that plant: http://www.anniesannuals.com/plants/view/?id=2876
Melissa
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, From a Face Book post made today (April 18, 2020) the breeder commented that this was bred from Eyes for You.
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#1 of 2 posted
4 MAY by
Plazbo
just to add to this
parentage would be 04-2 x Eyes For You
based on comments Jim has made on his facebook
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"Grandmother's Hat" is NOT the same as 'Molly Sharman-Crawford'.
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That was one of the several potential identifications proposed by Bob Edberg based upon illustrations in old rose publications. Unfortunately, we'll never know just who it is. I sent bud wood of it to The Netherlands years ago in hopes someone there would be able to compare it to similar roses there. It hasn't ever happened.
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#2 of 5 posted
9 APR by
Jay-Jay
Kim, Maybe I might shine some light on that in a personal message. Once I got delivered 3 the same unknown roses instead of Gruss an Aachen. I wasn't familiar with Grandmother's Hat... and today I looked at some photo's on HMF of it and for me the "false delivered Gruss an Aachen" and G.H. were similar. I gave those plants away. Best Regards, Jay-Jay.
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Thanks, Jay-Jay. Good "seeing" you, by the way!
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The rose exhibitor community has been showing Grandmothers Hat under the name “Cornet” for decades. “Found” roses are not allowed at most shows, and apparently someone did a comparison in the literature, and that was the best approximation to the found rose that is everywhere in California.
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Another Bob Edberg effort. Bob's major effort was Limberlost Books. He found old colored plates he felt were sufficient matches for both of those identifications. And, it was based upon those plates he made them.
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