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most recent today HIDE POSTS
Initial post today by Patricia Routley
I am not sure if “J. Datson” and “Frank Veal”, are the same rose as “Rookwood China”, “Rookwood’s Not Sanguinea”, referred to also as Big Single Red China at Rookwood. If they are, the files for “J. Datson” etc could possibly be merged with ‘Bengal Crimson’?
Refer ‘Bengal Crimson’ and “J. Datson” refs.
Reply #1 of 8 posted today by Ozoldroser
In Barbara May's notes:
J Datson 1912 see Veal China
Veal Col. Frank H - 16/4/1924 - wife 11/12/1917 - Alice daughter 20/12/1922 - (situation omitted here)
Beautiful perf. China. is Datson
Reply #2 of 8 posted today by Margaret Furness
No, "J Datson" isn't single. Nor are "Mrs Goode's red China" or "Grandma Frederick's red China".
Photo added.
Reply #3 of 8 posted today by Patricia Routley
Thanks to you both. I have added “double”. OK?
Reply #4 of 8 posted today by Margaret Furness
I tried to add "J. Datson" to the Ruston's plant list, but the system didn't recognise it.
Reply #5 of 8 posted today by Patricia Routley
I presume that is an OK.
I have added “J. Datson” - from the rose’s page, eg added the garden to the rose’s growers.
Reply #6 of 8 posted today by Ozoldroser
There are quite a few red chinas at Rookwood. James Turnball was called C. L. Brisbane and there was Datson and the Veale rose which were the same but different to the Turnball rose. Yes there were singles but to just call it "Rookwood China" doesn't tell you which it is at all - single, double, red, white????
Then there is "Steffies Red" which I think is different again, and this is without searching Barbara's listing any further.
Reply #7 of 8 posted today by Patricia Routley
Thanks for your input Pat. As I see them:
"Stephanie’s Red" (NSW) (syn: “Mary Ann Murray”) is the same as “Kombacy Elyena”. This seems to be a tea and I thought it may well be ‘Francis Dubreuil’.

A double red China.
“J. Datson”, (syn “Frank Veale”) seem to be very similar to “Grandma Frederick’s Red China” and “Mrs. Goode’s Red China”, according to Margaret.

A single red China - Bengal Crimson.
“Rookwood China”. I agree this study name does not describe the rose. However there have been photos published of the rose which shows a single red. A look at the references for “Rookwood China” might help here.

Cramoisi Supérieur (syn Lady Brisbane)
The foundling name “James Turnball” is not familiar to me.
Reply #8 of 8 posted today by Margaret Furness
There was also ":Jane Vaughan", which is a semi-single with a white eye. Jane Z thought it might be a seedling, and not worth growing.
most recent today HIDE POSTS
Initial post yesterday by Marina's Garden. Crawfordville, FL
Clematis Listing Omission

Clematis 'Blue Explosion'

Good morning, could you please add another Clematis to the data base?
This is information I copied form Spring Hill Nursery site:
You get to enjoy up to 5 months of bloom, and the myriad flowers have two totally different looks! In early summer, the old wood produces big semi-double blooms of blue touched with hot pink on the tips; then from midsummer till fall, the new wood bears single blooms of a lovely lavender. From master Polish hybridizer, Szczepan Markzynski. Easy to grow in humusy, well-drained soil, mulch to keep soil cool and moist. In late winter, prune off 10"-12" to a couple of well-developed buds. Clematis 'Blue Explosion'. Nothing beats the spectacular show of a large flowered Clematis in full bloom! It is valued for its ability to scramble up walls, fences, trellises, and even other plants. Plant it with its roots moist and cool, and its leaves in full sun, so mulch heavily or underplant with bushy perennials to keep them happy.
Thank you very much for your help. Have a blessed day,
Reply #1 of 1 posted today by jedmar
Added, thank you!
most recent today HIDE POSTS
Initial post today by Patricia Routley
Before I add the foundling name of “Rookwood China”, can I ask the Heritage Roses in Australia members if the most recent three HRiA references are correctly placed in this ‘Bengal Crimson’ file?

Later edit. The fourth HRiA 2020 reference seems to indicate that the above is correct. I have added the synonym.
most recent yesterday SHOW ALL
Initial post 21 MAR by ThomasR
Hello Jay-Jay, your Etoile de Hollande Cl. looks amazing.I am trying to identify a rose that grows at an old farm, which has a distinct feature that I can see in your picture : the petals can look like leather, very pigmented with that slightly oily lipstick shine. The color of the leaves also remind me of that rose. So here is my question : the perfume of the rose I know mainly evokes lemon water/hydrolat to my nose. And maybe a little bit of rosewood but I am not so sure about this one. It smells great but it is not the sweetest rose perfume. Does this description reminds you of the rose you photographed ? Thank you, Thomas.
Reply #1 of 32 posted 21 MAR by Jay-Jay
For sure, there is a lemon component in it's scent and sometimes it's the main note.
But it often has a strong old rose- or bourbon rose-scent. I know as a lay wood-crafter what the real Rosewood scent is, but that scent is not present. I'm not acquainted with "water/hydrolat".
When hot and very sunny, the scent can be almost absent and the color of the flower-petals is bright red, but on good days, a plant can fill a complete court-yard with a very present, but pleasant perfume.
Reply #2 of 32 posted 21 MAR by ThomasR
Thank you Jay-Jay ! When I say rosewood I actually do not know the real rosewood scent, but the perfume of the rose when I saw it last spring vaguely remembered me of rosewood essential oil, but the clearest comparision was lemon. I saw it again in November I think and the perfume was somehow sweeter. I took some cuttings as the rose grows on my brother's farm and some of them and the original bushes which I saw today are producing buds that seem more advanced than the other roses in my surroundings. I took a closer look at your pictures an they do remind me a lot of these bushes,although they are in much less good shape than your. They are big but not huge, are untrained but with an arching growth. The color of the leaves is very similar too. I'll post some pictures from November, where the bushes look damaged.
Reply #3 of 32 posted 21 MAR by Jay-Jay
It's possible. Maybe You could post photo's of hips? In the summer when hopefully Corona isn't out of control any more, we might send per post in a bubblewrap envelope a stem with half opened bud in a moist paper-towel or better wet newspaper. We'll see.
Do You know how to bud-graft or to root cuttings?
And maybe You can post some spring and summer photo's (not taken in full sunlight) of buds and flowers.
Enjoy spring and the weekend. Best Regards, Jay-Jay.
Reply #4 of 32 posted 21 MAR by ThomasR
Thank you Jay-Jay ! No I do not know bud-grafting nor root-cutting, but I will search for explanations. I will post other pictures as soon as I can. Thank you for your time, enjoy spring too ! Best regards, Thomas.
Reply #5 of 32 posted 21 MAR by Margaret Furness
This is the technique I use for rooting cuttings in warm weather, based on one developed by Mike Shoup in the US. Used from about late spring to mid-late summer; it needs 6 weeks of warm weather. In autumn, in-ground cuttings give better results.

Cut the bottom corners (about 1 - 2cm) from a zip-lock (food storage) bag - about 32 x 25cm. Bags with a double zip are more reliable.
Put about 10cm depth of a commercial potting mix into the bag An aerator, e.g. handful of Perlite, is recommended in the US, but is probably not necessary if you use a potting mix with good water-holding capacity.
Water it until the mixture is wet through, then close the bag and leave it to drain for several hours.

The cuttings should be taken from a stem that has flowered, up to a pencil-size diameter. For climbers, the cutting should be from a climbing shoot. Some people like to stand their cuttings in water with dilute Seasol (seaweed solution) or willow water for a few days.
Cut off the top bud. Take the leaves off the bottom 2 or 3 nodes (which will go into the potting mix), and leave a few leaves on 2 or 3 upper nodes. (Leafless pieces are much slower, and less likely to succeed.) Re-cut the stem obliquely a little below the lowest node, and dip it immediately into a rooting hormone (some people use honey or water that has had willow stems in it). Make a hole in the potting mix almost to the bottom of the bag, and put the cutting into the hole. A bag will take 3-4 cuttings. Close the bag, and write the name and date on the outside of the bag with a garden marker pen, where they are easily seen. It is not a good idea to put cuttings of different roses into the same bag; it’s too easy to mix them up. (I use Artline garden marker pens, from a stationery shop).

The bags should be put where they will receive light but not direct sunlight. They can be put in groups standing in a cat-litter tray, so they will support each other and are less likely to be knocked over. ( 3-5 per tray, depending on size.) It’s essential that the drainage holes aren’t blocked. It’s important not to disturb the developing roots, but the bag can be opened from time to time to remove fallen leaves or flower buds or dead cuttings (make sure it is sealed properly again afterwards). (You can blow into the bag to plump it up.)

If you can’t see many droplets of moisture on the inside of the bag after a while, add a teaspoon or two of water (or diluted Seasol), but this is rarely necessary.

When good roots are visible in the bottom of the bag (and not before), leave the bag unsealed for a few days to help the plants acclimatise (they may need some water). Then it can be potted out, a few hours after adding water to the bag; scooping out a handful of soil around the roots. (Loss rate from potting out is about 1 in 12; – higher if you take them out before the roots are fairly well-developed.) Tiny pink new leaves usually wilt straight away, and may be better removed. The plant will be top-heavy, and will need shelter from wind for some weeks. Introduce it gradually to sunlight over a couple of weeks. Feed weekly with dilute Seasol alternating with a dilute fertiliser containing trace elements until it is planted out or potted on. Mulching of pots or in-ground plants is important.

As a rough guide: for rambler roses, you can start looking for roots at 3- 4 weeks; for Tea or China roses from about 6 weeks. Hybrid Teas, especially the yellows, are much slower and have a lower success rate.

For cuttings taken in mid-late autumn, in-ground cuttings work best, especially in areas which get some winter frosts, although potted cuttings are another option. Longer cuttings than in ziplock bags are preferable, with at least 2 nodes in the ground, and most of the leaves removed. The larger the piece, the more stored carbohydrate it will have (up to pencil-thickness). They will need mulching, and twice-weekly watering through the summer. It’s best not to dig them up until the winter of the following year.

Looking after baby roses. We suggest watering weekly through the first summer, for in-ground plants. Potted roses may need watering daily, depending on your climate. It's better to remove almost all the flower buds in the first year, so the plant will put its energy into making roots and leaves.
Reply #6 of 32 posted 21 MAR by ThomasR
Thank you Margaret for the detailed explanation, I didn't know this technique ! You also made me realize I misunderstood Jay-Jay when I read "root cuttings" and "bud-grafting", I thought these were techniques of propagation using the roots or a bud, sorry ! I did some in-ground cuttings last summer but the weather was so hot in the South of France I had to hide them between bushes, so I should try your method instead. I also didn't know about the honey nor about cutting the first buds, that is frustrating ! I do use willow and I think it helps.
I really appreciate all the informations you just gave me, best regards, Thomas.
Reply #7 of 32 posted 22 MAR by Jay-Jay
Bud-grafting is indeed using buds on rootstock. Will post photo's of that later (photo-courtesy of the Rosarium in Winschoten). Good to do, with a (somewhat) steady hand.
Good post Margaret, thank You. You posted that some time ago too... but it promotes propagating and instructs newcomers as well as other visitors of HMF.
Reply #8 of 32 posted 22 MAR by Margaret Furness
I haven't tried bud-grafting, because every time I tried grafting fruit trees, I cut myself... But yes many people say budding roses can be learnt easily.
Reply #10 of 32 posted 22 MAR by Jay-Jay
Grafting fruit-trees is another branch of sport! And normally easier, with the right tools, binders (medifilm f.i.) and the right protection of Your thumb.
Reply #11 of 32 posted 22 MAR by ThomasR
I am not experienced and never tried bud-grafting. Among some others it is the Roses Anciennes De Talos site with its descriptions that got me interested in old roses and aware of the possibility to grow them ; Mr Surguet promotes cuttings for long term. That said I have read the comments about some roses that were weak on their own roots. Jay-Jay I am posting some pictures of young buds I took yesterday. Sorry the wall is South facing and the weather was sunny. Although the farm is inhabited I am cautious about my moves due to the rules in France concerning coronavirus. I will be pleased to send stems when possible.
Reply #14 of 32 posted 22 MAR by Jay-Jay
Looking very familiar indeed. Especially the red new growth, the prickles and the rosebuds.
Reply #9 of 32 posted 22 MAR by Jay-Jay
Could just upload only 8 photo's, so here's another-one:
Reply #12 of 32 posted 22 MAR by ThomasR
Is it a piece of metal that holds the plant ?
Reply #13 of 32 posted 22 MAR by Jay-Jay
No, the staple holds the rubber band, that protects the graft. The roots are holding the plant upright.
Reply #16 of 32 posted 22 MAR by Jay-Jay
And a look at this instruction film:
Reply #15 of 32 posted 22 MAR by Jay-Jay
take a look at:
Reply #17 of 32 posted 22 MAR by ThomasR
Thank you for all the information ! I'll watch the videos this evening. I see you're doing a lot of graftings. Have a nice day, Thomas.
Reply #18 of 32 posted 24 MAR by ThomasR
The Paul Zimmerman video was very clear on the topic of grafted vs own-root roses ; I do not understand german but the other video allowed me to see the gestures and equipment required for grafting. I'll also have to look for the compatibilities ! Most of the roses I ordered recently were grafted I think there are only 2 sellers in France who cultivate own-root roses, but I will try to propagate them from cuttings to see how they grow. Thank you for the links and pictures ! Thomas.
Reply #19 of 32 posted 24 MAR by Jay-Jay
La Roseraie du Désert sells own root.
Reply #21 of 32 posted 25 MAR by ThomasR
La Roseraie Du Désert has so many roses that I would like to grow... Unfortunately they are selling. They sent me beautiful own-roots, I will photograph them. There is also Les Roses Anciennes De Talos, but I think that's all. Your bed of English roses looks better than the David Austin catalogue, Rosa Glauca if I am right is such a visual trick, I may steal the idea. I have used black sambucus in order to blend in some colors.
Reply #22 of 32 posted 25 MAR by Jay-Jay
Thank You for the compliment. But as I wrote, in extended dry hot periods the Austins do not flower well, but yes, they survived well in a still-mode.
Rosa glauca bushes indeed, but they need more sun. "Alas" for the roses, they grow under big oaks...
And yes You're welcome to nick the idea. No problemo.
Reply #27 of 32 posted 25 MAR by ThomasR
I moved Brother Cadfael twice. Its first blooms were burning in front of a South-facing wall, so I moved it to a more shady place, where the sunlight was filtered by trees ; it vegetated there during all summer. It seemed to wake up when I moved it to a North-oriented spot, and produced tree good blooms during January (sweet temperatures last winter), these ones had better longevity as a cut flower. Best scent in the garden last year, it didn't smell anything else than rose I think, but in the way of a very good perfume.
Reply #20 of 32 posted 24 MAR by Margaret Furness
Sorry, I posted a comment on the wrong thread, and can't delete it.
Reply #23 of 32 posted 25 MAR by Jay-Jay
But yes Margaret, You did. At least I can't see a not fitting comment at all.
Reply #24 of 32 posted 25 MAR by Margaret Furness
I could delete the words, but not the post itself - had to leave some words there.
Reply #25 of 32 posted 25 MAR by Jay-Jay
Tried to delete this-one too... and You're right. It is impossible to delete a comment. Maybe You might report this as an error to HMF.
Reply #26 of 32 posted 25 MAR by Margaret Furness
In the past, you had to sign out andsign back in again to delete a post, but I don't think that is working now.
Reply #28 of 32 posted 12 days ago by ThomasR
Hello, I could take some other pictures yesterday and today. Again I can't go to the location whenever I want due to coronavirus measures, so the pictures are taken in full sun, sorry ! The flower, witch is the first to open of all the roses I am able to see, is somehow pinker/less red than the ones I saw last spring. Have a nice weekend, Thomas.
Reply #29 of 32 posted 11 days ago by Jay-Jay
Thank YouThomas,
Indeed looking a lot like Étoile de Hollande Cl. When it would be possible again to send budwood at the right time to bud-graft, I would be happy to make some for You. And send those back to You 1½ year later... + Some for real Étoile de Hollande Cl. from here too.
in the attachment a hip from a rose, that I recommend... even used as a climber.
Reply #30 of 32 posted 11 days ago by ThomasR
Thank you so much for your help Jay-Jay ! That hip is quite big, I've seen the picture with the euro piece. I agree Prince Jardinier is looking good on almost every picture ! Among Meilland's breedings,there are nice pictures of Cosmos too on Helpmefind. I do like your '14 The Wedgewood Rose OP 02' ! Your place seems to exacerbate the purple tones in many roses. Astrid Gräfin Von Hardenberg's blooms look sumptuous in your garden, I may purchase it later, so is Nachtfalter. You have prepared many rootsocks, it is looking professional.
Have a nice week, Thomas.
Reply #31 of 32 posted 10 days ago by Jay-Jay
And the scent of Prince Jardinier is "to die for"!
Maybe the dark red colors are intenser/purpler, because the soil is Ph8.
And I choose the morning- or evening-light that makes the the red colors more true.
Baking sunlight doesn't flatter the red roses.
Reply #32 of 32 posted yesterday by ThomasR
Hello Jay-Jay, do not hesitate to tell me if I am stretching too much the topic. I am just adding some pictures of the blooms, that had a strong lemon scent today, a close up of the stigmas and stamens that I can relate to your last picture. The blooms were more cupped last spring, but we had days of wind. Best regards, Thomas.
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