HELPMEFIND PLANTS COMMERCIAL NON-COMMERCIAL RESOURCES EVENTS PEOPLE RATINGS
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Recent Member Comments, Questions and Answers
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To Georgina Campbell,
How did you go on finding a 'Hector Deane' in New Zealand? Was anybody able to help you?
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At this stage no Hector Deane has shown up in NZ. Learnt something interesting thought and that is that rose members coming over for the World Fed Convention at Palmerston North in Nov are bringing in roses to exhibit yet I can't bring in budwood like that. Possibly Kelvin or David might be able to bring over some roses to exhibit that I am hunting for.
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'Hector Deane' has to be there somewhere. See the 1949 reference where Hamilton adopted it as a community rose; Whangarei also adopted it - see 1951 reference. Can you contact the Rose Societies for Whangarei and Waikato? Older members may still have it.
I am sorry I can't help with the New Zealand customs. (I can't help thinking of David's Ruston's book 'a Life With Roses' p41 where he went into Auckland airport with some ostrich feathers, originally from a 1903 garden party at Buckingham Palace. The bamboo supports for the feathers were confiscated, but he got the feathers in as millinary!) I actually thought David raided the local gardens for plant material for his flower demonstrations. I would shudder if I saw him approaching with secs, but I would be most honoured to give him anything at all that he needed.
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I'll follow those clues - thanks.
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Hector Deane strikes readily from cuttings in warm weather, using a variant of Mike Shoup's ziplock bag technique. In May/early winter I generally do better with in-ground cuttings, provided someone else will dig them up next winter!
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Thanks for that guidance - are you tripping next winter?
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No, but the digging can be too hard on a whinging back - I remember trying to extract Veilchenblau a year after the cuttings went into the ground...
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Ah - yes some certainly grow like tryphods very quickly.
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Please ignore the ratings shown here. They were not made by me and only one other person has a plant of it and they are not a HMF member. There is no way anyone except myself and this one other person could know any of these details.
In fact, HMF Admins, can they please be removed?
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Might be the webspider striking again- it gives Favourites votes to roses without listed sellers and/or gardens and/or photos.
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A favorite vote doesn't have to apply to a plant someone grows personally. It can be a "Favorite" simply because someone finds the photos particularly appealing.
A member rating on the other hand is a different story. We'll research the source of the rating and contact you directly with our findings.
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The blooms of "Bishop's Lodge Precious Porcelain" on the show table at the Heritage Roses in Australia Mt. Gambier conference looked 2nd generation gigantea to me. Has 'Squatter's Dream' been considered or discounted?
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I grow both and will post comparison pics eventually. Unfortunately I don't grow Mrs Oakley Fisher (there have been mutterings about Squatter's Dream in commerce being a potential mislabel).
They're on a different timetable in my garden; Squatter's Dream gets less sun, but is now mid-flush, with flowers and lots of buds. "BL Precious Porcelain" is at the end of a flush, with not a bud in sight. Both have a constriction at the top of the pedicel. For me, "BL Precious Porcelain" has bigger flowers (therefore long buds), and sets lots of hips. I'll have to watch to see if Squatter's Dream does. I think Squatter's Dream has longer, more pointed leaves,in a lighter green.
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Precious Porcelain has yellow stamens (I'm always tempted to write stamina). Mrs Oakley Fisher and Squatter's Dream have pink/red.
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Squatter's Dream defaults to a yellow gold colour anyway. But Precious Porcelain seems closer to primrose yellow, at least at Maddingley Park; perhaps not a lemon yellow. I thought PP might be one of those Dickson Irish XXX single roses (e.g. Irish Fireflame) from before the Great War, but no description fits. Also PP has ranks of big Pernetiana-style red thorns, quite incongruous with such simple yellow flowers. Puzzling, at least to the ignorant.
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‘Ulster Gem’, 1917 HT from Dickson is primrose yellow. However, I can’t find it mentioned anywhere in my Australian literature (which doesn’t mean to say it never got here). The anthers were said to be prominent. It is certainly within the 1895-1925 time frame mentioned by Colleen Houston in HRIAI 25-1-28.
Then there is ‘Irish Harmony’, 1904 Dickson. Was said to be yellow/cream/white, with buds splashed claret. When I saw ‘Bishop’s Lodge Precious Porcelain” in Nov, 2003, my notes were: “is creamy white, yellow buds. Sometimes there is a little staining of hint of pink right on the edge of the petal, but not on all flowers.” Perhaps that staining may have resulted from local weather conditions, for I see no pink on any of the HelpMeFind photos.
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Ooh, yes. Ulster Gem could fit if those darker centres were shadow rather than non-yellow stamens. One B&W photo is hard to go on. And I see my photo (below; B&W version to the right; Ulster Gem photo further right) looks darker in the centre. Adjusting for the colour shift and the Edwardian arrangement in the photo, Ulster Gem and PP look remarkably similar.
An article in the Adelaide Daily Herald for 20 May 1919, p.8 called "The Break in the Season: Brother Peter mentions roses and many other things" refers to Ulster Gem as a "favourite" rose growing in South Australia.
I looked at Irish Harmony. If "yellow to cream" means yellow fading to cream, then it could work. Red staining there certainly is in the photo below, frequently to be seen at Maddingley Park. You can see the stain ends at the point where the petal folded back inside the bud. On the other hand "saffron buds" (Dickson's 1914 catalogue) seem less likely.
An article in The Queenslander for 4 May 1918 called "Flower Garden" implied that "Irish Elegance, Fireflame, Glory, Harmony, and Refulgence" were all being grown in Queensland at the time.
Does anyone on earth know about the thorns of Irish Harmony? For what little it is worth, one of Margaret's photos shows Irish Fireflame with the same downward-pointing red thorns as PP.
Generally Dickson is a good idea because so many of his roses in that period visibly used Pernet material.
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The Dickson catalogue: "Irish Harmony … Saffron yellow, crayoned or smeared claret." If saffron yellow has orange or brown in it, then Precious Porcelain is not saffron yellow. But if saffron yellow is a deep egg yolk yellow, then the buds of PP are saffron yellow, deeper than primrose or lemon yellow and not chemical yellow like sulphur.
The buds I saw today had opened in dull, cold weather, so the colours had not been affected by direct sunlight. Yet the outer edges of the first petals to appear are stained or smeared red.
The Dickson records were lost in a 1921 fire, but we know red, downward-sloping Pernetiana thorns were in the breeding lines because 'Irish Fireflame' has them.
There can't be too many single yellow Edwardian–Georgian roses with such smears and such thorns. So I'd say there is a good chance "Bishop's Lodge Precious Porcelain" is actually 'Irish Harmony'.
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Nice work, Eric and Patricia!
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Thanks Eric. I’ve added these two possibilities to the main page for “Precious Porcelain”. I’ve also added that 1919 reference to ‘Ulster Gem’. ‘Irish Harmony’ is listed in the references as being in NSW and Victoria in 1905, 1908, 1913 and 1928. I actually have photocopies of many early catalogues that Billy, Pat and Margaret have sent me but only indexed them for the Australian bred roses. I’ll sit for a wee while today and add what I can see. From a quick look at colours on the internet, I think the bud of “Precious Porcelain” in your comment photo yesterday could be saffron yellow. However, all other bud photos in the file seem to be deep egg yolk yellow, as you noted.
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Patricia, it's a shortcoming of my Officeworks camera and of HMF limits on file size that all those yellows lack intensity. The middle photo of the 18 May buds captures the colour best, but it still doesn't glow enough.
That SA reference to Ulster Gem is not yet fully online. I'll let you know when it is. The dog that doesn't bark in the night for Ulster Gem is that not one of the many references to it mentions either red thorns or red smudges.
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Patricia, this article appeared as:
THE SUBURBAN HALF-ACRE. (1919, April 12). The Mail (Adelaide, SA : 1912 - 1954), p. 13. Retrieved May 19, 2013, from http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article63763368
GARDEN CHAT
SINGLE AND SEMI-SINGLE ROSES.
By ‘Speargrass’.
This list embraces the pick of all the single roses we have now growing in Australia. In some cases they are excellent, but few only can be highly recommended for garden purposes. Roses like Isobel, K. of K., and Ulster Gem stand alone, and the first two are worthy of a place in the best collection the world has produced. Isobel and K. of K. have been the admiration of all roselovers and I am sure my readers will do no harm in securing the roses for beauty and beautiful buds. The singles placed in order of merit are as follows:
— 1.— ISOBEL (McGredy & Sons, 1916).— A single rose of striking colour, carmine red, flushed orange scarlet. The centre of the flower is a pure yellow zone. A charming rose and a great favourite. Gold medal N.R.S.
2.— K. OF K. (A. Dickson & Sons, 1317). — A startling, dazzling semi-single of intense scarlet, of absolute clear colour. Growth vigorous, mildew-proof and one of the most striking roses ever sent out. Named in memory of Lord Kitchener, and will last as one of the finest roses ever sent out. To form an opinion of this rose those who grow Red Letter Day can say it is only a second class rose compared with this variety. Gold medal S.M.S.
3.—ULSTER GEM (Dickson & Sons, 1916).— A single rose of special charm and usefulness. Large shell petals of 'deep primrose yellow and prominent and abundant anthers, showing its large, stiff petals to advantage, a colour that in this class will make a great acquisition. Silver medal N.R.S., gold medal N.R.S.
4.— WALTHAM SCARLET (W. Paul & Sons, 1913). — A beautiful single scarlet, produced in great freedom. This is a glorious rose, as it flowers very early and continues right through the entire season.
5.— MISS MURIEL JAMISON (Hugh Dickson, 1910). — Strong, vigorous grower, free and abundant bloomer. To lovers of single roses this delightful novelty will be specially welcome. The flowers are very large. Colour, deep orange cadmium. Novel and much sought after. Awarded two cards of commendation by the National Rose Society.
6.— IRISH FIREFLAME (A. Dickson & Sons, 1913).— In the spiral bud state it is a deep maddery orange splashed with crimson, which, as the buds develop, becomes fiery orange crimson, changing to solid delicate orange. Vigorous grower and free flowerer. Awarded gold medal N.R.S.
7.— IRISH ELEGANS (A. Dickson & Sons, 1905). —In the bud it is bronzy orange scarlet, which, while expanding, assumes varied apricot hues. Vigorous and erect growth, branching freely. For buttonhole work it has distinct features of its own.
8.— SIMPLICITY (Hugh Dickson, 1909).— Pure white, immense flower, with large cupped petals of great substance, lasting a long time in good condition. The finest of all single roses for massing, bedding, and garden planting.
9.— IRISH VOLUNTEER. (A. Dickson & Sons, 1918). — Probably the largest crimson single rose ever sent out. It flowers freely throughout the entire season, and with its large crimson pile petals, showing its large yellow centre, makes it a charming rose.
10.— MRS. O. G. ORPEN (O. G. Orpen, 1906).— A beautiful damask rose of bright pink colour, with golden anthers. One of the most charming single roses in existence. Awarded the gold medal N.R.S.
11.— MRS. W. T. MASSEY (S. Bide & Sons, 1911).— Orange yellow, buds beautifully long and pointed. The flowers are produced in great profusion from October till end of April.
12.— IRISH HARMONY (A. Dickson & Sons, 1904).— Saffron yellow crayoned or smeared claret, the flowers when expanded being creamy white of large size. Very free flowering. A beautiful, distinct, and fine variety.
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Wonderful Eric. I've added the refs for our two roses in question and will try to add the remainder tomorrow for the other roses. I've found nothing in my little search, but then I am a side-tracker of the first order. However, I've got a whole load of old Yates catalogues and Gardening Bulletins that I'll plough through in front of tele tonight.
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Where have all the flowers gone...
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Speargrass writes in the year of the war memorials. His list is shaped by Imperial Preferences and has only roses from England and Ulster. Kitchener had drowned at sea in 1916, hence all the fuss about K of K. Wilhelm Kordes II had been interned on Jersey. Militant Peter Lambert had been crushed by the German "betrayal". Alister Clark had bred Jessie Clark and Sunny South, really or nearly singles, but they were hardly known.
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The Gardening Bulletins from South Australia yielded nothing, but the Yates catalogues carried 'Ulster Gem' from 1918 to 1920; and 'Irish Harmony' from 1914 to 1921. Unfortunately no new descriptions.
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So probabilistically many more 'Irish Harmony' plants were sold than 'Ulster Gem'.
Only two roses on Speargrass's list could possibly be "Precious Porcelain". 'Ulster Gem' is primrose yellow (good) with stiff (bad) six-inch (bad) petals. No mention of fading to cream (bad) or occasional red splotches (bad). 'Irish Harmony' is saffron yellow (maybe) fading to cream (good), with occasional red splotches (good) on large (not really) petals.
No ranks of big red thorns for either. But not one rose of the twelve named has any mention of even foliage, let alone thorns.
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The following occurs in Kingsley's "Roses and Rose Growing", 1908, now available online: … while Mr. Orpen, of Colchester, introduced the beautiful [Damask] pink climber, Mrs. O. G. Orpen, in 1906.
Speargrass's "Single and Semi-single Roses" in the Adelaide "Mail", 12 April 1919 lists 'Mrs. O. G. Orpen' (O.G. Orpen 1916) …
So he was O. G. Orpen and came from Colchester. The rose named after his wife was sold through Cants of Colchester, naturally.
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Thanks Eric. Details added
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