HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
most recent 27 MAY SHOW ALL
Initial post 24 APR 16 by MelissaPej
I'm not sure what's going on, but I tried searching for this rose on HMF using "William R. Smith" (minus the quotes) and got a message saying the rose didn't exist. Is there a glitch or am I just missing a typo I made?
Reply #1 of 7 posted 25 APR 16 by Patricia Routley
Yes,I think there is something odd.
William R Smith gets me straight there.
William R. Smith does not get me there.
The difference is one little full stop.
Reply #2 of 7 posted 26 APR 16 by MelissaPej
Reply #3 of 7 posted 26 MAY by mmanners
Yes this is still happening (May, 2019). (Patricia?) -- "William R. Smith" (with the full stop) is said not to exist. you have to make it William R Smith to get here.
Reply #4 of 7 posted 26 MAY by Patricia Routley
I can’t help any more with this one Malcolm. Only Admin can.
Reply #5 of 7 posted 26 MAY by mmanners
Sorry, thought you were "Admin." Who is that? thanks.
Reply #6 of 7 posted 27 MAY by Patricia Routley
Admin is short for a very small team of Administrators who keep this community-funded website running smoothly. They are assisted by an equally small team of volunteers, of whom I am one, who assist in any way they can on the roses, but any assistance at all is appreciated - and needed. For all of us, it is a labour of love. I am sure Admin will be in touch on that Smith fellow.
Reply #7 of 7 posted 27 MAY by jedmar
'William R. Smith' works again. Sometimes it is a just a broken link, probably during a merge/deletion of a synonym which ttok place 11 years ago. Adding the name anew and deleting the old one usually works.
most recent 26 MAY SHOW ALL
Initial post 5 SEP 14 by billy teabag
Thornless forms of Fortuniana certainly exist - selectively propagated by some nurserymen who use this rose as a rootstock, but the majority of plants I have checked are quite prickly.
Reply #1 of 2 posted 16 MAR 18 by bonbon
Billy West
I will check my bush out for prickles. It is quite vigorous and at present is spot flowering in March 2018..
Reply #2 of 2 posted 26 MAY by mmanners
In Florida, no matter how much you select for lack of prickles, the new plants will always make some. But the number of prickles varies widely through the season. In late spring, the plant tends to send up huge new canes, and these are often completely unarmed. Then as the weather turns hotter and the plant makes smaller, thinner branches, they will be dense with prickles. So we (and commercial Florida nurserymen) do select in favor of the smooth cuttings for understock cuttings, from among the prickly canes. I'm posting a photo of that wonderful late-spring growth. I'm about to take the season's cuttings!
most recent 23 APR SHOW ALL
Initial post 3 JUL 16 by mmanners
I think it should be noted that the original identity of the rose we grow as 'Pink Pet' is unknown, but that it is almost certainly not the true 'Pink Pet'. It is the same as "Caldwell Pink," and its leaves, prickles, etc., indicate Polyantha-like growth, probably with some R. setigera in its background, but almost no China characteristics other than that it reblooms a lot.

It is also known that this specific rose was first called 'Pink Pet' by a Florida rosarian who wanted to show it in ARS-sanctioned rose shows, and so she needed a registered rose name to call it. Since local judges didn't know what a real 'Pink Pet' looked like, she adopted that name for it, somewhat randomly, according to the story I've heard.
Reply #1 of 12 posted 11 JUL 16 by Patricia Routley
It seems to me that, ideally, we should have two files. One for the original
CHINA. 'Pink Pet' (China, Lilley 1928) and another for the

This second file should contain
"Pink Pet in Commerce as" (renamed from the current 'Pink Pet')
"Caldwell Pink"
"Bermuda's Pink Pet"

What do you think, Malcolm?
Reply #2 of 12 posted 11 JUL 16 by mmanners
That sounds reasonable to me.

Reply #3 of 12 posted 11 JUL 16 by Patricia Routley
Okay, done. If anyone believes they have the original china, instead of the polyantha, would they move their photos and let us know.
Reply #4 of 12 posted 4 OCT 17 by Tearose
I was reading references and comments here to see why the roses we have - Pink Pet and "Caldwell Pink", which are identical, were placed in the poly class, when they look like China roses to me. Polyanthas are dwarf multifloras, and have fringed stipules. I see no fringing on the stipules of these roses. The leaf shape of China roses is distinctive and that's what I'm seeing here. From what I've read, there is likely something besides China in its breeding, but I don't see where that would make it a polyantha.
Reply #5 of 12 posted 8 OCT 17 by Michael Garhart
Polyanthas are dwarf synstylae types. Not always multiflora-derived.
Reply #6 of 12 posted 9 OCT 17 by Margaret Furness
Yes, it 's a ragbag for "nowhere else to put them". Eg Little White Pet as a repeat-blooming dwarf of Felicite Perpetue.
Reply #7 of 12 posted 9 OCT 17 by Tearose
I suppose we should create a new class: Dwarf Shrub. Since Shrub is the catch-all for bushes of highly varied ancestry, it would make sense for there to be a dwarf equivalent. Anyway, I still think we don't need two listings for this rose- in commerce as and original China. I think they are the same, and the breeding is more China than poly. Possible China-Noisette?
Reply #8 of 12 posted 9 OCT 17 by Michael Garhart
Oh. Yeah, the class system is garbage. I don't know a nicer word for it. Outdated, maybe? But there is no excuse for it to be outdated.

The UK has a more refined system that is closer to ideal than most.

'Mother's Day' could be called many-flowered bush, for example.
'The Fairy' could be called many-flowered groundcover.
'Bonica' could be called many-flowered shrub.
'Baby Love' could be called many-flowered miniature.

And the buying public wouldnt need 50 society meetings to figure it out...
Reply #9 of 12 posted 10 OCT 17 by mmanners
In saying that it was Polyantha-like, I was not suggesting any genetic relationship; rather, it has tight, frequent branching, tight heads of large numbers of small flowers, and those flowers tend to have pointy petals -- all very un-China-like. Also, the foliage is unique -- deeply serrated, matte, turning brilliant orangey-red in autumn (even here in Florida), and with an amazing susceptibility to powdery mildew, but near immunity to black spot.

So it really doesn't fit with Chinas. It has been suggested that it may be a hybrid of R. setigera, and I could certainly believe that. And setigera is Synstylae. I'd agree that there is no evidence of multiflora in its background.
Reply #10 of 12 posted 10 OCT 17 by Michael Garhart
Sorry, I didn't intend to sound critical. The subject is frustrating to me, because I see it as a barrier between us (those with knowledge) and the common public in terms of growing roses.

As my generation comes into buying power, the easier roses are accessible in both nomenclature and ease of care, the more popular the rose could become.
Reply #11 of 12 posted 11 OCT 17 by mmanners
Oh certainly no offense taken, Michael. I just thought I should explain my use of the term. Best wishes. Malcolm
Reply #12 of 12 posted 23 APR by Michael Garhart
I stumbled upon this again. Based on its hetero ratio, closeness and disparity to traditional chinensis groups, strange foliage, inclusion of the enamel type found in tea-derived chinas, level of hardiness, strange peduncles, ploidy, petal count, and button eye, I think a Rosa setigera is possible if the setigera type was one of those setigera x noisette types and the other parent is a polyantha type bred from china-teas. There is likely some level of commonality and disparity between the parents of this rose. Or, if it is a self, then a commonality and disparity between the parents of the parent that was selfed and produced seed.
most recent 8 APR SHOW ALL
Initial post 1 APR by mmanners
We had some students doing DNA work in the summer of 2018. Using RAPD (with 5 primers), they found that George Washington Richardson is identical to Mlle. de Sombreuil. So it should likely be listed as a synonym for that rose.
Reply #1 of 10 posted 1 APR by Margaret Furness
Interesting work. Question: what was the source of the Mlle de Sombreuil they used?
Reply #2 of 10 posted 6 APR by mmanners
Margaret, It was the one grown by Vintage Gardens, originally found by Philip Robinson, and which appears identical to the one in the Lyon botanic garden.
Reply #3 of 10 posted 6 APR by Margaret Furness
Thank you. My memory says it was Phillip who identified our "Carlesruhe Cemetery Maria Bruhn" as Mlle de Sombreuil. Pat and Patricia have noted that it grows more like a Bourbon, eg Souv de la Malmaison - but Malmaison is half Tea.
Reply #4 of 10 posted 6 APR by Patricia Routley
I only saw “Carlesruhe Cemetery Maria Bruhn” in situ twice and noted that it had stout growth. I actually wouldn’t really recognise a Bourbon if I fell over one. But I am having great difficulty in matching the stout growth I saw on “Carlesruhe Cemetery Maria Bruhn” with the fragile slender growth of "Mystery Cream Tea", also said to be ‘Mlle de Sombreuil’. Sorry, I haven’t really done my homework on this question, so forgive any foot in mouth ignorance.
Reply #5 of 10 posted 6 APR by jedmar
The pictures of CCMB have a lot in common with Nestel's drawing of Mlle de Sombreuil. Have a look at the colour and form of the buds and sepals for example. In Nestel's drawing the buds are shown as nodding, but they were apparently upright (See Comment on Nestel drawing uploaded by Christina Macleod). The buds of the "Mystery Cream Tea" are shaped differently.
Reply #6 of 10 posted 6 APR by Margaret Furness
"Mystery Cream Tea" is so similar to Devoniensis, we had to grow them side by side at Renmark to show it was different. It's a vicious one.
Reply #7 of 10 posted 7 APR by Patricia Routley
Malcolm, I’ve merged “George Washington Richardson” with “"Huntington La Biche”. It has ended up where you wanted it. I am sorry for the delay.
Reply #8 of 10 posted 7 APR by Ozoldroser
"Mystery Cream Tea" "Range View Pink Tea" is a completely different rose than "Carlsruhe Cemetery Maria Bruhn" in habit, growth and features and the flowers of the former two study roses haven't much substance at all (finer and earlier?)
Reply #9 of 10 posted 7 APR by jedmar
The provenance of 'Mlle de Sombreuil' at Tête d'Or is not certain - most of the OGR's there are recent plantings. I would only trust a DNA comparison of the various clones, not a visual identification.
Reply #10 of 10 posted 8 APR by Margaret Furness
DNA testing, except for those with research facilities, is a cost I can't justify. For roses without continuity of name, we have to rely on skilled observers and/or appropriately detailed photos. For the time being I think we can assume that "Carlesruhe Cemetery Maria Bruhn" is the same as "Huntington La Biche" and "George Washington Richardson" and the Tete d'Or rose labelled Mlle de Sombreuil, but whether the last is its correct name is uncertain.
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